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I believe an excellent way to begin our group read discussion of Desolation Island is to consider former lissun Harry Clark's very interesting symbolic interpretation of the novel, which he titled "Allegory Wrestling, or Desolation Island Decoded", and which may be found at:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~hfc/pob/aw.html
John FinneranNew lissuns take note: that was Harry Clark's very first posting to the Gunroom. All recent arrivals will be expected to contribute something of similar magnitude within the next month :-)
If I hadn't met Harry in person, I would have suspected him to be an alias of John Finneran.
Don SeltzerDon Seltzer wrote:
If I hadn't met Harry in person, I would have suspected him to be an alias of John Finneran.
Ah, sure, Don, that's fine for you, but I haven't met Harry in person, so how can I be sure?...
John FinneranJust like to get views on Jack's reluctance to take the Leopard to NSW ostensibly because of the fact that he has been requested to transport convicts.
He is determined to make a stand and his resolve is re-enforced by some land-based considerations -being seen to be 'running' from Wray and his lead mines fiasco.
Initial attempts to change his mind by Stephen and Sophie appear to have failed. Then Stephen and Sophie have a discussion(avoiding a re-run of St Vincent).
Stephens last lines in that conversation are-'Jack must go away, grow used
to himself as a man of means, and learn to swim on an even keel when he in
on shore again'.
(hehe)
The only route that Stephen could now take to ensure that changed Jack's mind would be to explain the real reason why the convicts were to be placed on board and appealing to his sense of duty-but this would surely only be as a last resort-the less Jack knew about this 'ruse de guerre' the better.
Nonetheless at this stage it appears(to this reader anyway) that Stephen will be the one who will somehow bring about Jack's change of mind.
That night in bed however Sophie deals her trump card-appealing to Jacks friendship with Stephen and Stephen's current 'lowness' to brilliant effect.
Does anyone think that between Stephen's words 'Jack must go away' and Sophie's expert manipulation that there may have been further intervention from Stephen to steer her in the right direction?
'Maybe, Sophie, my dear, the best way to induce a change of heart in that stubborn husband of yours would be to stress the benefits of this voyage on those whom he most cares for? Or some such.
Or am I being unfair to Sophie? Yeah maybe I am.
alecIn a message dated 2/2/02 7:00:49 AM Central Standard Time, oflahertyalec@hotmail.com writes:
Or am I being unfair to Sophie?
yesIn a way, one of the central characters of "Desolation Island" is Jack Aubrey's ship, HMS Leopard, unaffectionately known as "the horrible old Leopard," one of that class of Fourth Rates known as 50-gun ships. They were two-deckers, like a ship-of-the-line, but far too small to take a place in a Napoleonic line of battle. The Leopard was one of the Portland class of 50-gun ships, designed in 1767, designed to carry 22 24-pound, 22 12-pound, and 6 6-pound cannon, with a tonnage of 1044. Although the Leopard was ordered in 1775 and the keel laid down at the Portsmouth Dockyard in 1776, but she was not completed at that time. In 1785 the frames were taken to the Sheerness Dockyard where a new keel was laid, the Leopard finally being launched in 1790. In 1811 she was converted as a troopship (26 guns) and ended her career when wrecked in fog off Anticosti Island in the Saint Lawrence River on June 28, 1814. Excellent illustrations and plans for the Leopard can be found in Rif Winfield's "The 50-Gun Ship".
Bruce TrinqueBruce Trinque writes: " In a way, one of the central characters of "Desolation Island" is Jack Aubrey's ship, HMS Leopard, unaffectionately known as "the horrible old Leopard..(SNIP)... Excellent illustrations and plans for the Leopard can be found in Rif Winfield's "The 50-Gun Ship". They can indeed, and what a pretty ship this "horrible old Leopard" is, is she not? A reproduction of her original Admiralty draft is also included in David Lyon's "The Sailing Navy List", p. 78, under which reference is made to PO'B and "Desolation Island".
I recently picked up "The 50-Gun Ship", currently available in the UK as a publisher's remnant, for about £ 8.
Another reference which may be of interest is the wonderful R/C (radio-controlled) working, SAILING model of her built by a modeller in Germany, which can be viewed at http://members.aol.com/lorkaest/leopard.html . Viewing the top pic in particular, one would hardy know this was not of a full-sized replica; I seem to remember he took these of her sailing on the Baltic on a very calm day.
One reference omitted in Bruce's synopsis is the "Chesapeake" affair, the reason she is best known to Americans, which is mentioned in the Canon (one of the reasons why Jack and other officers who had served on her, even if not at that time, get such short shrift as prisoners of war in the USA).
Another famous sister-ship, also of the "Portland" group of 50-gun ships (I tend to avoid the term "class" as an anachronism, useful though it may be to categorising scholars and authors such as was Lyon) was "Leander", launched 1780, sent back with Nelson's despatches after The Nile in '98 (due to lack of frigates; she and the brig "Mutine" which did eventually reach England with the duplicates were the only 2 British vessels available which were not 74s, since none of the French frigates was taken, 2 of which were destroyed, 2 escaped). "Leander" was taken 2 weeks later after an epic fight with the "Genereux", 80, one of only 2 French ships of the line which had escaped the destruction at Aboukir Bay, in one of the most heroic resistances against odds in the annals of the Royal Navy. "Genereux" was later taken by the British, and "Leander" retaken too, by the Russians at the fall of Kerkyra/Corfu in 1799, and handed back to the British, served until 1806 before becoming a hospital depot ship.
If I ever build a working 50, it will use all Rif Winfield's excellent information, but will be "Leander" rather than "Leopard".
Regards,
Roger Marsh
PS acute accents on the first 2 "e"s of "Genereux" - but they will get mangled over the Net. Why? And why do we keep getting these =20 inserts all over the place? I see Ragnhild can get her Norwegian "o" Umlaut through unscathed - mykke bra!
Roger wrote:
"Leander" was taken 2 weeks later after an epic fight with the "Genereux", 80, one of only 2 French ships of the line which had escaped the destruction at Aboukir Bay, in one of the most heroic resistances against odds in the annals of the Royal Navy. "Genereux" was later taken by the British, and "Leander" retaken too, by the Russians at the fall of Kerkyra/Corfu in 1799, and handed back to the British, served until 1806 before becoming a hospital depot ship.
And especially significant as we know of somebody who served in both Leander and Genereux, at great benefit to his career.
Martin @ home:
50° 44' 58" N
1° 58' 35" W
In a message dated 2/3/02 8:58:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, frigates@MARLINTER.FSNET.CO.UK writes:
Bruce Trinque writes: " In a way, one of the central characters of "Desolation Island" is Jack Aubrey's ship, HMS Leopard, unaffectionately known as "the horrible old Leopard..(SNIP)... Excellent illustrations and plans for the Leopard can be found in Rif Winfield's "The 50-Gun Ship". They can indeed, and what a pretty ship this "horrible old Leopard" is, is she not? A reproduction of her original Admiralty draft is also included in David Lyon's "The Sailing Navy List", p. 78, under which reference is made to PO'B and "Desolation Island".
The diagrams (drawn by John McKay) in "The 50-Gun Ship" are of very high quality, extremely detailed, and provide a deck-by-deck portrait of the vessel. Many are drawn from a three-dimensional perspective, so it is very easy to envision the Leopard as she really was. The reference to POB in Lyon's "The Sailing Navy List" is matched by the back cover note on "The 50-Gun Ship" in which the Leopard is described "as well known in fiction as the 'horrible old Leopard' of Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey novels." As a marketing tool it certainly worked for me.
Bruce Trinque
41°37'52"N 72°22'29"W
I've been quietly lurking the list, but must post my latest discovery--I've not seen it mentioned in the gunroom before. It is "Anatomy of Nelson's Ships" by C. Nepean Longridge. Because no construction model of the Victory exists, Longridge built a model from the original plans. The book includes detailed fold-out drawings (about 24 by 30 inches) and is quite readable. My husband absconded with it on a 2 week trip to the Midwest so I've not had a chance to finish it. Sigh.
Ray McP
PS If the author had to go with *Nepean* as a first name, what must *C.* stand for?
At 3:59 PM -0500 2/2/2, Batrinque@aol.com wrote:
In a way, one of the central characters of "Desolation Island" is Jack
Aubrey's ship, HMS Leopard
The choice of the Leopard was an inspired one on several levels. First, the Leopard had already been introduced in the previous book as one of the ships that had taken part in the Mauritius Campaign, even then being referred to as "the horrible old Leopard." The other bits of Leopard history are fairly accurate as stated. Peter Heywood did indeed command her in the East Indies in the early 1800's, giving Jack a good reason to invite him to dinner. Heywood then provides a tie-in to Governor Bligh of New South Wales, the ostensible purpose of the mission, and to the foreshadowing mention of the two remarkable open boat journeys, of Bligh of the Bounty and Edwards of the Pandora. But best of all, the Leopard symbolized the growing conflict between the US and GB over free trade and impressment of sailors. The history of the Leopard-Chesapeake affair gave POB a convenient means to toss in a little political background to the impending war, and to justify the hostility of the American whaler.
The Leopard as a creature also had great significance for POB. His first book, Caesar, was of course about an animal that was half-leopard. Leopards and tigers were often used as metaphors for certain women in the canon. In DI, he directly states that Louisa Wogan was a leopard to Diana's tiger. And in his final book, BATM, a leopard makes a nocturnal appearance when Stephen courts Christine. I believe it was Charlezzzz who pointed out which female the unhappy leopard represented.
Don SeltzerIn a message dated 2/3/02 12:19:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, raymcp999@YAHOO.COM writes:
I've been quietly lurking the list, but must post my latest discovery--I've not seen it mentioned in the gunroom before. It is "Anatomy of Nelson's Ships" by C. Nepean Longridge.
Longridge's "The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships" (although the title is misleading because it is strongly focused upon only the Victory) is indeed a treasure trove in information about the design and construction of Nelson's flagship at Traflagar. It was primarily aimed towards model builders, but any ship fanatic would appreciate the book. A nice bonus are the photographs of the construction details of the Implacable, a captured French ship-of-the-line.
Two other excellent sources of diagrams of the Victory are John McKay's "The 100-Gun Ship Victory" (part of the "Anatomy of the Ship" series) and Lana McGowan's "HMS Victory: Her Construction, Career and Restoration" (with drawings by -- who else? -- John McKay).
Bruce Trinque
41°37'52"N 72°22'29"W
Babbington's 'pet' seems to have had freedom of the decks.
Surely in a taut ship his movements would have been curtailed?
Babbington's 'pet' seems to have had freedom of the decks. Surely in a taut
ship his movements would have been curtailed?
Woke up this moring and this is the first thing that came into my mind.
Of course the answer-Babbington had a 'pooper scooper'.
alec-worried 'bout what type of sleep he is getting
John Finneran did us a great favor when he reran that marvelous posting by Harry F. Clark -- "Allegory Wrestling, etc." I call it a favor but it was also a burden.
Four years back, when Harry first posted it, I copied it. And read it over and over. I promised myself I'd prepare a comment on it, and then I felt guilty because I couldn't bring myself to come up with an appropriate comment. It became a burden. There was so much there! Too much! Far too much! Too much to comment on. And yet I wanted to comment on every paragraph. Because it was simultaneously full of brilliant insights and other insights that seemed far fetched.
Harry's basic theme--that POB was using the great myth, perhaps the great myth of the world, to structure the story of Jack's trip as "the Hero's Journey to the Underworld" struck me as simultaneously correct and yet too ingenious.
You know that myth: the usual story is that the hero goes down into the underworld, remains there, undergoes certain tests, and returns to the upper world greatly changed, often bringing some insight of great value for his people. A few examples, and there are many more: Gilgamesh, Dante, Virgil, Ulysses, Orpheus, Osiris, Jesus, Theseus, Hercules. And Alice. And Gandalf.
So...
As I was reading DI with Harry's insights fresh in my mind, I came again to that flute-playing marine: the marine Lieutenant, John Condom Howard, who played once too often and was killed by Larkin in a drunken frenzy. Note this: after the murder, Larkin was "jerking and writhing with convulsive force in delirium tremens, making a hoarse, animal roaring."
And note how Maturin has described Howard: "He plays to calm the billows and to still brute-beasts in their fury...He is possessed."
Now consider that Orpheus, the son of Apollo and Calliope, was the musician of the world. His music cd calm the waves and the wind; he cd still the fury of wild beasts with his playing.
Orpheus was eventually killed by maenads, torn apart by women driven wild by drink, by religious frenzy, and maenads cd be described as "jerking and writhing with convulsive force in [their frenzy], making a hoarse, animal roaring."
And the best known story of Orpheus is his Journey Underground. His wife Euridice having died, Orpheus went to face the king and queen of the dead, and his music was so wonderful that they permitted Euridice to return to life...provided Orpheus didn't look back as he led her to the surface. But that's another story.
The point is, POB has as good as said, "Look here, Lissuns, Harry Clark is right. I've build a nifty structure here. The Hero's Journey Underground. I didn't think anybody wd notice what I've done. But when a novelist frames his story around a myth, the story picks up a great deal of power from the reader's unconscious--where myths do their work."
That's as good a "proof" of Harry's theory as you cd ask for, seems to me.
And I'm especially in interested because one of the things I'm working on is a modern retelling of just that myth. It will run more than 50 pages; here are two of them. My hero has reached the river at the bottom of the world, and is tempted to go further. But decides to choose life with its flaws instead of the perfection of death. (The snake, you may know, was a symbol of eternal life to the ancient Greeks, because of the way it cd be born and reborn by shedding its skin.)
Wherever he looks, shadows twist away.
He comes to the edge
of a stream that rubs itself, sliding
through the limestone, rubs against
a glimmering
boulder at the center
of that world.
A snakeskin crumples under
his left foot as he is about to take
the step that would put him
into the stream where he would find whatever
there is to find
in the thick black water.
He¹s found the cast-off skin
of a blind snake, a skin split
where the snake, twisting, scraped
herself against that boulder,
tearing the skin beneath
her jaw, tongue flickering, as if she whispered
secrets to the rock,
carving herself
delicately out of her skin,
skin left behind as the new snake,
glittering in darkness, curled away reborn
under the crags beneath the earth,
and under all the imaginary stars.
He picks up the snakeskin. He
speaks into the empty cave, saying: ³What
should I...² He says nothing more. He
doesn¹t know what more he wants to say. Water
hisses past him. Kneeling,
he cups his hands
and drinks from the stream; frigid water
stings the bone
between his eyes.
The light on his forehead
makes the ripples
of his drinking
dance in the cave.
No insects flitter over the water, no spider
torments them. The water¹s empty,
drained pure as limestone by centuries beneath
the earth. For a while he rests
by the edge of the stream, watching
the boulder, soaking
his ankle into numbness, chilling
his forehead
with sips of burning water.
A small wind
blows downstream a few inches above
the water, blowing from darkness into
darkness. The wind
dries his face. He looks at the threshold
where the water flows away; he sees
there is enough room
for him to crawl beneath
the low lintel stone, following the stream
downward, down on its journey to the place
where waters are gathered
together under
the mountains¹ roots.
The water
flows past him. The noise
of the water is white
noise: he doesn¹t hear it unless he listens,
and then the noise is all he hears,
the noise that drowns out
the clamor
in his heart.
He knows that he has come far
enough. He¹s found enough. He fills
his canteen, letting the water flow
until, heavy, it pulls
his hand down into the water.
The skin on his hands
is wrinkled, puckered from the chill,
like the skin of the old men he used to see
sitting on benches in the park, hands
on their knees, waiting
for nightfall so they could leave
the park and find,
at last, their beds.
Charlezzzzz is there no end to your talents, usually you make me chuckle or laugh out loud. Now you are writing epics?
Stephen ChambersThanks, Stephen for the kind words. But epics? I'm just trying to answer the question that Hemingway used to ask himself: "What shall I have this bastard do next?"
CharlezzzzzCharlezzzzz wrote:
Now consider that Orpheus, [snip] His music cd calm the waves > and the wind; he cd still the fury of wild beasts with his playing.
I haven't checked this, but I think there may be another nautical connection for your Orpheus/Howard comparison. Wasn't Orpheus the musician who travelled with Jason and the Argonauts on their voyage in search of the Golden Fleece? I believe it was his singing that enabled the Argonauts to resist the temptation of the Sirens. This would give Orpheus a shipboard experience that would strengthen the link with Howard.
In a related matter, perhaps you can answer a question about the Orpheus myth that has bothered me since I first read it as squeaker. At first, I considered the question flippant, but the more I have thought about it, the more I have realized that the answer might be important to the myth.
In some versions, after Orpheus was torn apart, his severed head was thrown into the River Hebrus. His head, still singing, floated down the Hebrus to the island of Lesbos where it was buried. My question is: What was Orpheus's head singing as it floated down the river? I would expect that what anyone expressed when they knew they were dying would be significant. But Orpheus had already seen the Underworld, so he knew what he was going to. Also he was the quintessential poet/musician. Orpheus's last song must have revealed a great mystery. What the heck was it?
Kevin in TO.
P.S. Charlezzzzz, your posts are great!
43° 38' 44" N
79° 22" 33" W
on 2/2/02 11:47 PM, Kevin at kmclough@SYMPATICO.CA wrote:
In some versions, after Orpheus was torn apart, his severed head was thrown into the River Hebrus. His head, still singing, floated down the Hebrus to the island of Lesbos where it was buried. My question is: What was Orpheus's head singing as it floated down the river? I would expect that what anyone expressed when they knew they were dying would be significant. But Orpheus had already seen the Underworld, so he knew what he was going to. Also he was the quintessential poet/musician. Orpheus's last song must have revealed a great mystery. What the heck was it?
A remarkable question. Maybe some of the list musicians cd comment.
Or maybe it was something like this...
"Upward, she followed me toward the chanting upper world,
"followed on the blistered path that led all others down,
"rose with me toward Earth¹s own darkness, until I turned
"to praise her dear feet walking out of illuminated Hell."
Charlezzzzz, wch is a quatrain from another poem I've been working on for a couple of years and don't have it right yet.
Kevin wrote:
Hebrus to the island of Lesbos where it was buried. My question is: What was Orpheus's head singing as it floated down the river?
Old Maenad River?
Of course there is a connection with Lesbos later in the canon in the Ionian Mission.
Martin @ home:
50° 44' 58" N
1° 58' 35" W
Old Maenad River?
Oh, Martin. That is so astonishingly vile as to be beyond words.
M.
Still mulling Charlezzzzz's provocative exploration of the Orpheus myth in DI.
Perhaps POB was working some other parallels from mythology. Orpheus had been on a great sea quest with Jason and the Argonauts. He had also been to and returned from the Underworld.
The great sailor of myth to whom Jack must have been compared many, many times was the wily Odysseus who called himself a "sea-bitten veteran." Some of the passages in the Odyssey describing Odysseus's voyages find echoes in the Aubreyad. For example:
"So lifted the keel of that ship, and in her wake
An indigo wave hissed and roiled
As she ran straight ahead. Not even a falcon,
Lord of the skies, could have matched her pace,
So light her course as she cut through the waves,
Bearing a man with a mind like the gods',
A man who had suffered deep in his heart,
Enduring men's wars and the bitter sea--
(13.86-93)
So both Odysseus and Orpheus had both been on great sea quests (and foiled the Sirens).
Odysseus and Orpheus had something startling in common. Odysseus had been to the Underworld and returned alive. No other mortal had returned from the Underworld.
Jack's love of music and its soothing and healing power relates to Orpheus, but I do not remember Odysseus as a musician--although he weeps almost uncontrollably several times as tales are being sung in his company.
Back to Orpheus's head! There is one suggestion of what the head of Orpheus sang as if floated down to Lesbos. The last three lines of the last of Rilke's "Sonnets to Orpheus" are:
And if the earthly has forgotten you,
Say to the still earth: I flow.
To the rapid water speak: I am.
Kevin musing in TO.
43° 38' 44" N
79° 22" 33" W
Charlezzzzz' marvelous verses recall a post in which he told us about his experience 'spelunking' years ago.
"...the wind dries his face.
He looks at the threshold
where the water flows away. He sees
there is enough room
for him to crawl beneath
the low lintel stone, following the stream
downward, down on its journey to the place
where waters are gathered
together under
under the mountains'roots."
OOOO! I feel the claustrophobia!
Jean A.
(But I think I remember that Charlezzzzz is not particularly claustrophobic.)
on 2/3/02 12:16 PM, Jean A at Sherkin@AOL.COM wrote:
OOOO! I feel the claustrophobia!
but sometimes, after you crawl through some tiny pipe that you have to scrape and squish yourself to get through, the cave opens up into a vast room that wd make any cathedral proud. something vastly symbolic there, and wonderful. except you know you have to crawl, scrape, and squish back to get out. even more symbolic, but less wonderful.
charlezzzz, recommending three sources of light
Imagine that, during the first few bars of a symphony, a flute goes tweedle deedle dee squeak bing, and nothing more is heard of that theme until the end of the movement, when the whole orchestra comes in with tweedle deedle dee squeak BANG. You wdn't think that the first flute statement was accidental, wd you?
So let's think of that tiny moment right in the first chapter of DI, when Jack's baby son George is brought on stage for just a few lines.
'"He has cut his first tooth," Mrs. Williams says...George smiled at him, chuckled, and displayed his tooth.'
And that's it. George cd do any of the things a six-month baby does, but POB has him display a tooth.
A tooth theme in DI.
And what a BANG the book finishes up with, all about pulling the American captain's tooth...the tooth that solves the pintle problem...the tooth that saves the Surprises from spending the starving winter on DI.
What I wonder is...are there any other tooth scenes in the book?
Charlezzzzz, who some years ago wrote a long lost posting about the probability of toothaches aboard ship in those days, when the average person had lost most of the 32 teeth by the age of 40.
All of Charlezzzz'zzzz posts are worthy of "Post of the Day," but this one surpasses. Now I have to re-read Dezzzzolation Izzzzland and look for teeth.
- SusanOne of Sophie's sisters has to go to London to have her teeth filed--but dont' remember which book that's in.
Lois
Just started DI and came to the marvelous passage where Killick acquires a wife. I had forgotten all about it. I was needing a good laugh and I certainly got one. Bless POB and bless you all for inspiring me to re-read this.
EB, who had one or two in the roving, uncertificated line himself in his
younger days.
32º 33'N
94º 22'W
on 2/3/02 12:06 PM, Kevin at kmclough@SYMPATICO.CA wrote:
So both Odysseus and Orpheus had both been on great sea quests (and foiled the Sirens).
Just so.
And when I think of the many heroes who were set adrift as babies, I wonder that POB didn't give such a background to Jack.
Of course, there was the infant that Clarissa (probably) threw into a well.
We never hear about that baby, and how it was pulled up in a bucket, raised in an orphanage, and was sent into the navy to make its way. Too bad we will not ever hear her story, the creature.
Charlezzzz, wondering about the Ladies of the Coast
On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, at 09:19:10 -0800, Ray McPherson wrote:
If the author had to go with *Nepean* as a first name, what must *C.* stand for?
Charles, according to my local library's online catalog. Hardly an unpleasant name, but I once knew a Charles who changed his name to avoid being called Charley.
Bob KegelNow that I know enough to look deep deeply into that old file, POB, I was struck by Jack's remark (p. 35, Norton ppbk), as he ended his narration of his business ventures to Stephen:
He sighed; and then, in a different tone, he said, 'Lord, Stephen, how Arcturus blazes! The orange star up there. We shall have such a blow from the south-west tomorrow, or I'm a Dutchman; still, 'tis an ill wind that spoils the broth, you know.' "
And of course they don't know then that they are to sail the horrible old
Leopard to the southwest, down to the Antarctic seas, endeavoring to escape
the Dutch ship Waakzaamheid.
And, I looked up Arcturus and here is:
'Arcturus takes its name from its nearness to the sky bears, Big and
Little, otherwise known as Ursa Major (the constellation containing the Big
Dipper) and Ursa Minor. "Arcturus" in Greek means "bear watcher" or
"guardian of the bears." '
I'm sure that POB knew what connotation Arcturus had. Be alert to see if
Arcturus is mentioned again later in the book--was Jack, the bear, guarded?
(Not trying to spoil it for the first-timers.)
This came from the web site: http://www.arcturus.ca/statpage/thestar/thestar.htm
At the bottom of the page one sees:
"Dava Sobel watches her patch of the night sky just above Long Island,
N.Y., without the aid of anything so newfangled as a telescope. Send her
your questions and observations at stargazer@discovery.com. "
After laughing at Martin's outrageousness on Old Man Maenad, the above reminded me for some reason of the woman? in Java Head who said that life is like a river and we sit in it with our backs to the water rushing towards us; we can only see before us the water which has passed by.
~~ Linnea (unable to keep up with all the threads and Digests, as she keeps visiting the recommended books and websites, which keeps her on the run, hither and yon)Maybe as members (re) read DI they may be able to help me .
I still, on this my third reading, cannot figure out why O'Brian went in such a round about fashion to tell us that it was 'Herepath's' appearance which had such an affect on Mrs Wogan on her first visit on deck.
He has a 'young man' appear on the poop-'with a look of delight'
Turnbull then cries - 'You sir'.. And this is followed by a few blows from Atkins
Turnbull is subsequently summoned by the Captain.
Jack really labouriously(in my view) says 'it is as easy to call out Herapath as 'You sir''.
And proceeds to reprimand him.
But the main point of Jack's admonishment was not to do with lack of knowledge Herapath's name.
So Stephen's relayed impressions of Jack's growth in stature as a Captain were not dependant on the delayed naming of Herepath.
Both principals at the time of the incident-Stephen and Mrs Wogan-would both have known it was Herepath(Stephen had not recalled/smoked the relationship yet).
So why did POB say 'young man'. Was he testing the reader?
At times I hate asking questions here, as the liklihood is you get an answer that is so obvious that you feel as stupid as..well..as you are.
But my new catchphrase is 'what the hell'.
alecOld Maenad River? Oh, Martin. That is so astonishingly vile as to be beyond words.
And yet so obvious... I'm envious I didn't come up with it.
--
Bill Nyden
a Rose by another name at Home
37° 23' 28" N 122° 04' 09" W
======================================================
One of these days I've got to stop procrastinating.
Speaking of obvious, I am surprised that no one came up with "I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles."
Kevin, humming in TO.
43° 38' 44" NAlec O'Flaherty wrote:
Does anyone think that between Stephen's words 'Jack must go away' and
Sophie's expert manipulation that there may have been further intervention
from Stephen to steer her in the right direction?
No, I don't. Sophie is terrified that Jack will be called out to duel and wants him out of the country immediately and uses the Stephen card as her best bit of available manipulation.
Aari, who loves Sophie's ability to use Jack's goodness to get her way.From: Edmund Burton
Just started DI and came to the marvelous passage where Killick acquires a wife. I had forgotten all about it. I was needing a good laugh and I certainly got one.
I am pleased to report that this is #24 on my list.
Chuck (himself also loving young snapping black-eyed pieces)
See Humourous Passages fromSo, Charlezx5 observes classical allusions and tooth themes starting with young George Aubrey built into DI and wonders of there are more.
The title itself is a transparent encoding of "O, Son's Dental Iliad," if that helps.
-Jerry, who has already disciplined himself for this by finding others involving "inane" and "idiot."
on 2/5/02 6:04 AM, Jerry Shurman at jerry@REED.EDU wrote:
So, Charlezx5 observes classical allusions and tooth themes starting with
young George Aubrey built into DI and wonders of there are more.
The title itself is a transparent encoding of "O, Son's Dental Iliad," if that
helps.
Amazing, Jerry, absy astonishing. What more proof could one ask for? You have opened up a new aspect of scholarship.
And what can you make of other titles?
Charlezzzzz, whose head reels from Jerry's approach to literary criticism. I think I'll go back to bed.O'Brian gives us his view on judges in "Desolation Island," on Page 33 (Stephen speaking about judges):
"I make no accusation. Though if I had a certainty where in fact I have only a suspicion, a man's being a judge would not weigh heavily. Sure, it is weak and illiberal to speak slightingly of any considerable body of men; yet it so happens that the only judges I have known have been froward companions, and it occurs to me that not only are they subjected to the evil influence of authority but also to that of righteous indignation, which is even more deleterious. Those who judge and sentence criminals address them with an unbridled, vindictive righteousness that would be excessive in an archangel and that is indecent to the highest degree in one sinner speaking to another, and he defenceless. Righteous indignation every day, and publicly applauded! I remember an acquaintance of mine literally foaming - there was a line of white between his lips - as he condemned a wretched youth to transportation for carnal knowledge of a fine bold up-standing wench: yet this same man was himself a smell-smock, a cold, determined lecher, a voluptuary, a libertine, a discreet frequenter of Mother Abbot's establishment in Dover Street; while another, in whose house I have drunk unaccustomed wine, tea, and brandy, told a smuggler, with great vehemence, that society must be protected from such wicked men as he and his accomplices."
Well!
Citing a line of froth "seen" in the mouth is a cheap shot, perhaps, but I love the phrase smell-smock! Stephen often goes on about abuse of authority, and this is a fine exposition of it.
I think I can see POB being quite outraged when an editor abused his privilege by offering emendations to the text of a fine writer, too.
- SusanI really like the way POB showed us on page 226:
"Mrs Boswell is in labour, and some time tonight or tomorrow I think I may promise you an addition to your crew."
followed on page 228 by:
"The sun rose on a sea in labour."
- SusanMr. Zed wrote:
What I wonder is...are there any other tooth scenes in the book?
Well I dunno, but how about the following bits:
"Leopard's maw will be stuffed with tenpenny nails, and with all kinds of other stores too, such quantities of 'em. And she has plenty of TEETH, as you see: twenty-two twenty-four-pounders on the lower deck, twenty-two twelve-pounders on the upper deck, a couple of six- pounders on her forecastle, and four five-pounders on the quarterdeck; and I shall take my brass nines as stern- chasers." -- DI p. 36
"But at least I can promise you will have an excellent surgeon. I know a very able young man, a brilliant operator, a profound naturalist -- an authority on corals -- who would give his eye-TEETH to go with you." --DI p. 39
" 'Do not be afraid, ma'am,' cried Babbington, approaching with a smile that would have been even more winning if youthful folly had left him more in the way of TEETH, 'he is as gentle as a lamb.' " --DI p. 109
"Stephen became intimately acquainted with the first lieutenant's carious TEETH and indifferent digestion, and with the bosun's ague, first caught at Walcheren; and he wormed the entire midshipmen's berth." --DI p. 177
"There is this Peggy of yours, that will reduce the whole ship's company to a parcel of noseless, TOOTHless, bald paralytics unless she is headed up in a barrel with no bunghole." --DI p. 179
"The Waakzaamheid over the crest again: Jack poured the priming into the touch-hole with his horn, guarding it with the flat of his hand, the cigar clenched between his TEETH and the glow kept bright; and this bout each gun fired three ~times before the Leopard mounted too high, racing up and up, pursued by the Dutchman's shot." --DI p. 233
"Most of them were kind or at least indifferent, but there was one old twenty-foot bull with a remarkable collection of wives that still would not suffer him to come close to, although they had been acquainted for such a while: it would still rear up and writhe its person, gibbering, gnashing its TEETH, blowing out its inflatable nose, and even roaring aloud." --DI p. 292
"As soon as he had seen what passed for the whaler's sickbay, Stephen realized that he would have to conduct two delicate resections at once if the legs were to be saved; and there were, as he had supposed, a good many TEETH that would call for a firm, steady hand, a strong wrist, when the more important work was done." --DI p. 308
[passages referring directly to George's tooth, or those of the American skipper, omitted . . .]
Does this help?
--------------------
"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims." -- DI p. 67
In a message dated 2/6/2002 11:30:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, susanwenger@YAHOO.COM writes:
while another, in whose house I have drunk unaccustomed wine, tea, and brandy
Is unaccustomed the proper word? It seems he means "uncustomed" ( Not paying customs tax) not " being unused to ".
Blatherin' John BAt 2:32 PM -0600 2/6/2002, Steve Ross wrote:
"As soon as he had seen what passed for the whaler's sickbay, Stephen realized
that he would have to conduct two delicate resections at once if the legs were
to be saved; and there were, as he had supposed, a good many TEETH that would
call for a firm, steady hand, a strong wrist, when the more important work was
done." --DI p. 308
Stephen's dental skills seem to be fleeting. A few books later, he claims to have little knack for drawing teeth.
Don Seltzeron 2/6/02 3:32 PM, Steve Ross at skross@LSU.EDU wrote:
[passages referring directly to George's tooth, or those of the American skipper, omitted . . .]
I am amazed, Steve, amazed at all the TOOTH references you came up in DI. And so quickly, too. How did you do it? Are you an amazing speed reader? Or do you have a staff of gnomes to hunt through books? Are you, perhaps, a god?
Charlezzzzz, hunting for that cyber concordanceIn a message dated 2/6/02 4:00:28 PM Central Standard Time, Charlezzzzz@HOME.COM writes:
I am amazed, Steve, amazed
Your jaw dropped, huh, Charlezzzzzzzzzzzzz?
If the tooth be told.
Coinci-dentally,
Mary SCertainly there are a lot of "tooth" references in the Aubrey-Maturin cainine.
- Susan
It's my impression that you will not have your fill until you have needled everyone. Is that the drill?
We should stop, before we incite The Novo-Caine Mutiny.
That brings to mind Michael Cainine, the marvelous acting dog.
I suppose that most of us have one particular volume of the Canon that, when pushed, we would name as being our favorite. As it happens, "Desolation Island" is my choice for this Best of the Best selection.
I think I rate DI so highly because it seems to me that not only does this novel feature one of the absolutely best scenes in the entire Canon (the struggle against the Waakzaamheid, with its deeply affecting conclusion), the book is especially well-balanced in its scope of view. Jack is portrayed as a consummate naval officer both in combat (the Waakzaamheid again) and in seamanship (the long fight to keep the Leopard afloat and to steer her to safety). Stephen is shown as a skillful intelligence operative as he probes Louis Wogan's secrets and devises a devastating disinformation ploy. We see scenes of English domestic life and scenes of nautical life. Stephen finds a natural paradise (well, a paradise by his definition). Relationships of considerable diversity are explored: professional relationships like that of Lieutenant Grant and Jack Aubrey, personal such as Louisa Wogan and Michael Herapath.
And of course, "Desolation Island" is the first book in what I think of as being the Great Sequence of novels at the heart of the Aubrey-Maturin Canon, that sequence of novels stretching from "Desolation Island" through "The Wine-Dark Sea" in a virtually unbroken, continuous narrative.
Bruce TrinqueI agree with everything Bruce said. DI is also my favorite of the canon, for all of the same reasons, expressed so beautifully by him. I could have chewed over my thoughts for hours and not written anything half as good. Though I'm enjoying all the incisive, biting comments on DI...One might even describe the book as transcendental. -RD
La Fayette has met The Leopard at the bay on Desolation Island. Jack and the LF's captain have an impasse, with both needing help and neither willing to offer it in case of a rebuttal and loss of face.
Suddenly, with Stephen's intervention, the impasse is over: the Doctor helps the whalers and the forge is delivered to the stranded sailors.
How? What changed? What social nicety did Stephen perform to allow each Captain to drop their figurative guard?
I must be as thick as something that is very thick indeed, because I can't see what the change was.
Regards,In a message dated 2/6/2002 11:34:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, njpc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU writes:
How? What changed? What social nicety did Stephen perform to allow each Captain to drop their figurative guard?
I'm sure you'll get a proper answer, but off the top of my head, it seems Stephen offered to pull the whaler's tooth?
Blatherin' John BI'm with you on this, Bruce. If DI isn't my favorite, it's very high on the
list.
Here we see how our boys have become very much more than mere mortal men. In
the beginning we are confronted with poor Stephen's broken-heartedness, drug
addiction, professional failures. And there's Jack's utter inability to see
the landsharks who practise upon him at every turn.
After a year or so on land, the two men whom we love and admire are found to be completely 'at sea'.
These men are clearly not destined for lives of extended domestic bliss. The earth can no longer contain them, they have grown too big for everyday life, for civilization. Like bulls in china shops, they make a cock of whatever they touch.
But send them off on that unstable element, confront them with raging storms, disease, treachery, mutiny, even a Jonah and a ghost in the bowsprit- and they blossom into the glorious, heroic men we love so well.
All the tension and the horrors are counterbalanced with some of the most ingeniously funny passages in the entire canon. (Aside from the business with the ghost, Stephen declaring himself 'tolerable amphibious', there's Jack's rant against women, comparing them to basilsks (p179 Norton pb) and his dismissal of Howard moments later "I could take no pleasure in playing with a man who could speak so ill of women". Desolation's supply of foul-smelling cabbage. Stephen's euphoria in his 'Paradise' and the way in which he compells poor Herapath to admire it's wonders takes up two or three wonderful pages.)
And on top of all else (as many have pointed out before) this is the book that shows us the threads of stories that will be woven into such rich tapestry for the next eight or nine books. O The promise of things to come! Like Pavlov's salivating pup's, here is where I get excited for what comes next. Here's where my rate of reading increases, from 'when I can fit it in to my schedule' to 'when I can tear myself away from the blasted books and get some bloody sleep already' .
Vanessa, which it's one in the a.m. and I've got to be at work in seven hours and (as I'm just starting in on FOW now) I've got to get all Stephen's belongings secure aboard LaFleche before I can ever hope to sleep.
on 2/7/02 12:15 AM, Jebvbva@AOL.COM at Jebvbva@AOL.COM wrote:
off the top of my head,it seems Stephen offered to pull the whaler's tooth?
Just so.
But...
What wd have happened if the whalers had not offered the forge? Without the forge, the Leopard cd not have left Desolation Island. They might not have survived the winter.
Jack cd easily have used force, taking the forge. But Jack knew that the international incident wch wd surely have followed when the whalers told their story might easily have led to war. Not good. The end of Jack's career, among other bad things.
But suppose, just suppose, the whaler skipper had healthy teeth; that he had brushed, flossed, and --from earliest childhood-- drunk fluoride in his rum. What then? How wd Jack have handled the situation?
Here's my theory...
He boards the whaler. Takes the forge. Murders the Americans. A cannon ball at every foot, he buries them in deep water, pointing out that "Dead men have no tall tails to tell." He tows the whaleship out to sea, burns her. Louisa and Herepath, who cannot be trusted to keep silent, are headed up in a keg with a pound of cheese and flung overboard; the keg is then used for target practice. The Leopard, her pintles renewed, sails off into the sunset, wch lasts, in those latitudes, near six months.
But that's not all. Wogan never brings her poisoned disinformation to the British. Charles Poole and other American agents are never found out; they continue their spying with great success. America, consequently, wins the war! The Royal Navy is turned over to America as reparations, Jack, in order to keep his job, takes out American citizenship. And... (the rest is obvious.)
CharlezzzzzI wrote:
La Fayette has met The Leopard at the bay on Desolation Island. Jack and the LF's captain have an impasse, with both needing help and neither willing to offer it in ase of a rebuttal and loss of face.
Suddenly, with Stephen's intervention, the impasse is over: the Doctor helps
the whalers and the forge is delivered to the stranded sailors. How? What changed?
What social nicety did Stephen perform to allow each Captain to drop their figurative
guard?
and several others replied (in paraphrase):
that it was Stephen's pulling the tooth and helping the Americans that turned the tide
The American Captain had already refused Stephen's help, in his first meeting with Jack. How did Stephen then get to go over to the La Fayette? What was it that changed the American Captain's mind; or what event occurred that allowed Stephen to go over and keep the face of all concerned?
This is the aspect I don't get: both Jack and Putnam had refused each others' help, including the help of The Leapord's surgeon, yet, a few pages later, Stephen is on board The Lafayette.
Sorry, I'm still a bit of a thicky, I don't get it. I think I've missed an important aspect to it. I read it only this morning, so it's fresh in my mind, but a blinkered mind obviously.
Help is welcome,I'm fairy impressed at everyone's willingness to grind away at the topic.
--This is the aspect I don't get: both Jack and Putnam had refused each others' help, including the help of The Leapord's surgeon, yet, a few pages later, Stephen is on board The Lafayette. Sorry, I'm still a bit of a thicky, I don't get it. I think I've missed an important aspect to it. I read it only this morning, so it's fresh in my mind, but a blinkered mind obviously.
Jack lays the case before Stephen (p304) who recognises that Herepath is the key to unlocking the situation with dental diplomacy - it is Herepath, realising the whalers' health problems are beyond his meagre skills, who calls on Stephen for help, thereby placing Putnam at a moral disadvantage which can only be recovered by offering use of the forge.
In a message dated 2/6/02 11:21:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, rdwos@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
I agree with everything Bruce said. DI is also my favorite of the canon, for all of the same reasons, expressed so beautifully by him. I could have chewed over my thoughts for hours and not written anything half as good.
Nay! I shall yield the palm to Vanessa Brown for her eloquent assessment of DI.
Bruce TrinqueI think transcendental is the word, Rosemary--whoops, was that a tooth reference!
Desolation Island is the book that seems to sum up all of POB's powers. I remember the first time I read about the sea chase to the south, and when it was over, I came back to earth and felt as if I'd been away for months, in cold seas and that I had been THERE. I'd never been quite that transported with a book before (no pun intended).
On my second reading, I was surprised that the struggle hadn't taken up the entire story--it seemed to me that it had. I'm not very far along in DI now but am looking forward to that epic journey again.
~~ Linnea
The American Captain had already refused Stephen's help, in his first meeting with Jack. How did Stephen then get to go over to the La Fayette? What was it that changed the American Captain's mind; or what event occurred that allowed Stephen to go over and keep the face of all concerned?
I've had a raging long-term toothache, and this is totally understandable.... The captain was out of his mind with pain and realized he was being unreasonable.
Greg
42º32'34.5" N--- Charles Munoz
The Royal Navy is turned over to America as reparations, Jack, in order to keep his job, takes out American citizenship. And... (the rest is obvious.)
Obvious, yes. Jack would have become a saloonkeeper at the Reade's Arms AND Congressman from Doylestown, PA, Kelly's Topless Pizzaria would no longer be topless, the alligators would have been et long since, and there wouldn't be any hip-hop rapsta' "music," fer sure.
If the tooth be told.
Coinci-dentally,
Certainly there are a lot of "tooth" references in the Aubrey-Maturin cainine.
It's my impression that you will not have your fill until you have needled everyone.
Is that the drill?
We should stop, before we incite The Novo-Caine Mutiny.
I'm fairy impressed at everyone's willingness to grind away at the topic.
As a newcomer here, still teething as it were, I am left open mouthed in admiration for such a polished performance and regret I cannot think of anything to crown it.
Les Hellawell
Greetings fromOn Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Les Hellawell wrote:
As a newcomer here, still teething as it were, I am left open > mouthed in admiration for such a polished performance and regret I cannot think of anything to crown it.
Les, I think we need to get to the roots of your regret. Are you sure we can't mentally masticate on this subject a bit and ruminate for a few days?
Susan (flashing back to her recent two root canals...)This is going to far, let's stop making mountains out of molars. Chew all hear
what I said? Enough!
-Vanessa
Fangs to everyone for such incisive comments!
Now rinse,
Mary S From: Charles Munoz
--- The Royal Navy is turned over to America as reparations, Jack, in order to keep his job, takes out American citizenship. And... (the rest is obvious.)
Charelezzzz,
Absolutely brilliant!! EXCEPT I (for one) don't think its so obvious that Ronald Reagan would have become Queen.
Chuck (who often misses the obvious.)
See Humourous Passages fromChapter 3 of DI, Maturin is examining Wogan and asks her if she might be pregnant. She whips out a nifty answer that picks up some words from MacBeth: "No, sir; I conceive that I am far more likely to be cribbed and cabined, than confined." And she even has the wit to play on "conceive" as well as "confined." Well, of course, she was a playwright herself...a second Aphra Behn. (The real Aphra Behn was also, at one time, a British spy, though she never got paid for her trouble.)
"Now I am cabin'd, cribbed, confined," says MacBeth.
"Tough," says I. "Semper Fi."
CharlezzzzzI'm fairy impressed at everyone's willingness to grind away at the topic.
Given enough time, its bound to be gummed up.
Chuck (trying to be toothsome (without much hope.)) From: Les Hellawell As a newcomer here, still teething as it were, I am left open mouthed in
admiration for such a polished performance and regret I cannot think of anything
to crown it.
Les! sir!
You have crowned it, and I am in awe of your crown. It surely is Jackpot Night.
Chuck (with a tear-soaked keyboard.) I've never been able to figure out what the literary significance is of
Louisa Wogan's "absurd, purling" infectious laugh. Is it to distinguish
her from Diana? But Stephen thought in HMS Surprise that Diana has a nice
smile, "most women are as solemn as owls." Or is it so show how unsuited she is to be a secret agent?
Or is it to make her seem more sexually attractive? Or is it to provide us with the same smile as it does the crew? And isn't she actually taller than Diana even though everyone thinks she's
shorter?
Ruth A.
I've never been able to figure out what the literary significance is of
Louisa Wogan's "absurd, purling" infectious laugh. Wonder if that Theme might be the 'mouth'/'face' rather than just
teeth-did'nt Louisa offer tongue( in the cooked sense) to Herepath. Yeah I felt that 'that' laugh reverberating round the ship a bit strange-and
unreal. I asked the question last week if anyone might have thought that Stephen may
in any overt way have influenced Sophie's bedtime discussion with Jack,
which changed his mind about sailing the 'Leopard'.
Perhaps the real question should have been not- who was 'really'
instrumental in Jack's change of heart (Sophie), but who does Jack
ultimately think was actually responsible for it?
On page 143(harper)-Stephen asks Jack for a 'free hand' with Mrs Wogan.
'You too, Stephen cried Jack colouring. By God, I- 'Do not mistake me, Jack, I beg.. these are not carnal words. I will say no
more than this: her arrest was in fact connected with intelligence. That is
the meaning of the words you found on the superintendent's instruction 'all
facilities will be afforded to Dr Maturin, without question'. I did not
explain them at the time, because the least said in these matters the
better.' Jack then concurs with Stephen's suggestion.. 'but deep in his mind there was a sense of having been-not tricked, not
quite manoevered, perhaps managed was the word. He did not care for it at
all. It wounded him.'
How far back did Jack's sense of being managed go? Would he not think back- 'I had been determined not to take the Leopard. Then Sophie and Stephen had
left the dining room together when 'St Vincent' was being re run. Later that
night in bed Sophie used Stephen as a weapon to get me to change my mind-and
now I find it is all to do with intelligence. And that all along it was part
of Stephen's grand plan to be on board the Leopard with that damned Mrs
Wogan.' 'He 'managed' Sophie to change my mind, the dog. Yes he could do that.' He took up his fiddle, and standing there facing the open stern window and
looking out onto the wake, he stroked a deep note from the G string and so
played on, an improvisation that expressed what he felt as no words could
have done. Not necessarily what he was thinking-but faintly possible. I think you have it spot on. I can just imagine Jack mumbling under his
breath, like Muttley, before kicking out at the stern lockers in a semi-sulk
and grabbing up his violin. Stephen Chambers In a message dated 2/11/02 2:31:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jane.skinner@srl.cam.ac.uk writes: PO'B might also have chosen the Leopard because it was once Captained by
one of Jane Austen's brothers, Francis, around 1804-1805. I just happened to
come across the information in Brian Southam's "Jane Austen and the Navy", which
I've been enjoying. The book only mentions the Leopard in passing, but there's
no suggestion that she was regarded as 'horrible'... Jack at least was spared one of the problems inflicted upon the Leopard when
she was fitted as a troopship over the winter of 1810-11. Not only was her
armament reduced with the removal (or storage below of her main battery) with
a corresponding shrinkage in crew strength, but also her rigging was changed
from that of a Fourth Rate to that of a Sixth Rate since a lower rate of
speed was considered acceptable for such a role. Captain William Henry
Dillon described the situation: "The Leopard, as a troopship, was not fitted with the rigging allowed to a
50-gun ship, but with that of a frigate of 28 guns, and a crew suitable to
that class. However, we had the (usual) allowance of boats, the launch being
a very heavy one. The lower yards, not being of sufficient strength for that
weight, was sprung in hoisting her out. I had therefore to represent this to
the Powers above, who ordered stronger yards to be supplied." In a few places in the canon, POB uses the joke of confusion regarding the
famous Lord Byron. Stephen thinks of the poet, while Jack and other
officers naturally assume it is Admiral "Foul-weather Jack" Byron. The
young midshipman, later acting-Lt. Byron who first appears in DI is
apparently the grandson of the Admiral, and cousin of the poet. The most
likely real-life candidate for this Byron is George Anson Byron, who was a
naval officer during this period (though he was promoted Lt. a few years
earlier).
Captain George Anson Byron's most notable naval accomplishment seems to
have been the return of the remains of the king and queen of Hawaii to the
islands in 1824, after they had died of the measles while making a state
visit to England. Taking advantage of his cruise to Hawaii, he toured the
islands, renaming a few geographical features after himself.
Byron! Byron! Byron! Lookee what he wrote...stanzas wch seem to show that he
may not have loved the ocean quite as much as his grandfather did. Roll on, thou deep and dark blue Ocean,--roll! Of course, Byron had never seen the Great Lakes--that shallow and dark blue
body of seasick-making water. The "bubbling groan" ain't innit. Charlezzzzz writes. . ."the Great Lakes, that shallow and
seasick-making boody of dark blue water. . ." Is there one of your
stories behind this comment, Charlezzzzz? Because I can boast(?) of
being vilely seasick on the ferry between Madeleine Island and
Bayfield, and even feeling a tad qualmish on a gently bobbing vessel
safely moored to the Lake Michigan shoreline.
on 2/12/02 12:17 PM, Gerry Strey at gestrey@WHS.WISC.EDU wrote: Charlezzzzz writes. . ."the Great Lakes, that shallow and seasick-making
boody of dark blue water. . ." Is there one of your stories behind this comment,
Charlezzzzz? Becasue I can boast(?) of being vilely seasick on the ferry between
Madeleine Island and Bayfield, and even feeling a tad qualmish on a gently bobbing
vessel safely moored to the Lake Michigan shoreline. I'm happy to say there is not. But I have heard tales of those bumpy lakes from many and many a sailor. A tad qualmish, you say? On a moored vessel? Do you have a story to tell us?
A confession, perhaps? As Hamlet asked Gertrude, "How is it with you,
Madam?" (Just after she had been poisoned, I think.)
Hold hard, Charlezzzzz, even the young Hornblower had the experience of being
seasick at anchor. In fact he was widely known as the Midshipman who was seasick
at Spithead. But that didn't harm him in the long run. Theo Gazulis page 226 (harper)DI Stephen tells Jack of the impending birth of a baby on Board the Leopard 'Ten to one another------ woman said Jack. (1) does that 'dash' mean he used a fairly corourful expletive? (2)Jack it appears to me is betting that it will be a 'female'.Should he not
have said ten to one on. Otherwise Stephen gets 10 pounds (or whatever) for
Jack's one. Or was betting jargon different then-or is PO'B just happy that
the reader will get the jist of the matter? also just underneath that on the same page Killick brings in some 'chops,hot
and hot' Is there any significance to the double use of hot? alec (2)Jack it appears to me is betting that it will be a 'female'.Should he
not have said 'ten to one on.' Otherwise Stephen gets 10 pounds(or whatever)
for Jack's one. sorry that should have read Stephen would stand to win 10 pounds while only
risking one. POB's use of the dash to indicate a curse or an obscenity has been
much discussed on this list, because sometime he used it and sometime
he uses the word itself. No none to my kowledge has found a pattern
or a reason for the variance. But Jack certainly meant "another
damned female." I wonder if Jack was even attempting a wager with Stephen--it's
always seemed more likely that he was just expressing his general
disastisfaction and exasperation with the problems his female
prisoners were causing him--it was all too likely that Salubrity would
add insult to injury by adding yet another female to his burdens. The ice pudding could be ice cream or a sorbet/sherbet kind of thing,
and the nuns could only have made it if they had a supply of ice which
would have been brought from some northern locale--possibly the US.
Or was it possible to get ice from the Andes?
I wonder if Jack was even attempting a wager with Stephen--it's always seemed
more likely that he was just expressing his general disastisfaction Firstly thanks for the reply. I totally agree that Jack was not actually offering a 'real' bet to Stephen.
But as a phrase to imply that he strongly expects it will be another 'damned
female', surely the phrase 'odds on' or some such term would be better in
the context than 'ten to one'. Could it be that POB was not totally totally up to speed on betting jargon?
I can't imagine him wandering into a bookies to put a tenner on the 3 30 at
Ascot! However it's a minor point. About the iced pudding-yeah - I was wondering how they could make it without
refrigeration-thanks for the info!
Well, I'm as lost as POB is assessing betting odds. But I forgot to
address "hot and hot." I take it to be an intensifier, suggesting
very hot and fresh from the oven or grill or whatever. (2)Jack it appears to me is betting that it will be a 'female'.Should he
not have said ten to one on. Otherwise Stephen gets 10 pounds(or whatever) for
Jack's one. Or was betting jargon different then-or is PO'B just happy that
the reader will get the jist of the matter? If Stephen were to take the bet, he would receive ten quid if it were a
boy. I'd jump at the chance. also just underneath that on the same page Killick brings in some 'chops,hot
and hot' Is there any significance to the double use of hot? I've often wondered about this. If Stephen were to take the bet, he would receive ten quid if it were a
boy. I'd jump at the chance. MMM maybe I'm getting something wrong here-(wouldn't be the first time)-but
the point I was trying to make is that Jack says ten to one a --woman. That
is the 'token' bet is- if its a GIRL he'll pay out ten to one. This would
seem incompatible with the thrust of his sentiments.
However no point dwelling on it too long. "Ten to one" It's a fairly common expression. At least it is where I come
from; on the other side of the pond. I've been known to use it myself.
Jack says ten to one a --woman the reverse- He is betting ten against one that it WILL be a ------ girl- so
If it is a girl, he WINS 10
but that won't make him happy- he is disgusted that the chances of it
being a girl are so good! But I forgot to address "hot and hot." I take it to mean that the chops (or whatever) keep arriving, so that as you
finish one lovely hot chop, another is just coming off the grill. Astrid Bear, who sometimes serves pancakes hot and hot
"Ten to one" It's a fairly common expression. At least it is where I come
from; on the other side of the pond. I've been known to use it myself. I have obviously explained my point badly-let me start again (1) Stephen announces an impending birth (2) Jack we know is opposed to women on board-and because he so much
dislikes their presence he is convinced that the 'baby' will be a 'girl'- OK
(3) That means he should NOT be offering 10 to 1 that it WILL be a girl-
which he does (4) That bet implies that Jack thinks there is only a one in ten chance of
it being a girl-and that 'bet'it at total 'odds' (excuse the pun) with his
feelings. (5) The real bet that a gambler would have made in a throw away remark like
that is 'Ten to one ON it a ---woman.' i.e. theres a one in ten chance of
it being a boy!
alec
Marian Van Til wrote: "Ten to one" It's a fairly common expression. About the swearing: -- Aari Alec O'Flaherty wrote:
'but deep in his mind there was a sense of having been-not tricked, not
quite manoevered, perhaps managed was the word. He did not care for it at all.
It wounded him.' A good point Alec. I noticed that Jack seemed a bit more wounded than the
immediate situation dictated but I did not smoke the connection to the
beginning of the voyage. I do think that was POB's intent as "wounded" is
quite strong otherwise.
And here he was magnanimously sailing the Leopard in order to cheer poor
Stephen up! About the swearing: And as Helen Connor mentioned on the day that I first met her, a far
ruder term is used once.
Don Seltzer wrote:
The young midshipman, later acting-Lt. Byron who first appears in DI is
apparently the grandson of the Admiral, and cousin of the poet.
The grandson of Jack Byron, protagonist of "The Unknown Shore!" The passage about midshipman Byron puzzled me a bit on my first time through
DI (seemed long and unconnected to the rest of the narrative), but I've read
TUS since then (and Glyn Williams' "The Prize of All the Oceans") and this
time it set me laughing so! Norton p. 103 And POB puts Pullings' grandfather on the shore in Chile with the Wager
crew: The conversation about Byron leads to a discussion of shipwrecks. Pullings'
grandad "liked to contemplate on wrecks .... he used to say you never knew
a man, til you had seen him in a wreck.... even warrant-officers break in to
the spirit-room and get beastly drunk, dress like Jack in the Green ... jump
into boats and swamp ' em lake a parcel of frightened landsmen," all of
which comes to pass when the Leopard is at it's worst. Is this Jack & Stephen's first "shipwreck" in the canon? If so, then it
stands to reason that when setting out to tell the story, POB reached back
to his last great tale of shipwreck and connected it to our story,
introducing the Byron grandson to the crew to tie his two Jacks together.
-- Aari, loving DI more and more Alec O'Flaherty wrote: I felt that 'that' laugh reverberating round the ship a bit strange-and
unreal. But what a terrific metaphor for the influence of Mrs. Wogan herself on the
crew! The utter inappropriateness, and the beguiling attraction. How crazy
it must have made them to know she was down there. And even when they
couldn't see her that laugh would grab them, almost like a little piece of
home, of land, something utterly, utterly out of place at sea, let alone on
an island covered with seals in the middle of the nowhere.
I find the laugh, and everyone's inability to keep a straight face when it
floats past them, the most wonderful device. But what of the name WOGAN? Has anyone heard this name in any other context?
I find it so awkward and strange throughout the book. Any thoughts as to why
POB might have chosen such a name for such an important character? Herapath,
which I've also never heard before, is delightful.
Here is a Charles Wogan, who took part in the Jacobite rising of 1715,
wound up fighting for the Spanish, like Maturin's father, and was the
author of "Female Fortitude, exemplified in an impartial narrative of the
seizure, escape and marriage of Princess Clementina Sobieski."
http://www.searcs-web.com/wogan.html EB
In a message dated 2/12/02 7:07:19 PM Central Standard Time,
astrbear@IX.NETCOM.COM writes: hot and hot Dorothy L. Sayers uses this expression in her play, THE EMPEROR CONSTANTINE,
so it would seem to have been fairly common. It is recorded in church
history that the people in the streets in those days were singing popular
lampoons about the Arian controversy, so she invents one in English doggerel
as part of one scene. But the verse gives no further clue to the meaning.
Ah! O.k.! I turn to the Oxford Universal, and find:
"Hot and hot: said of dishes served in succession as soon as cooked." But I suspect perhaps it can be generalized to just mean "very hot."
A sad, brutish grobian, [IM, p45]
Seems to me that for non-betting folks, "ten [chances] to one" is just a way
of saying "it's extremely probable, almost for sure that it will be a girl." If I remember my biology, it's actually something like 10.5 to 10.0 that it
will be a boy. But then Stephen was the natural philosopher, not Jack.
Like ... a galvanized manatee, or dugong, [RoM, p. 224] Mary S And agaaaain-If a person thinks something is going to happen, he announces-
it's ten to one that it will happen- he is not betting against it- he is just
stating the odds.
In a message dated 2/12/2002 8:17:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
aari@NYC.RR.COM writes:
that "fucking" was written out at least twice and "-------" used elsewhere I believe that that word is a good old anglosaxon word and perhaps in
those days was not considered that bad. I believe he uses it once in
presence of women? And I think I have seen POB use 'damned' as written.
Just inconsistent.
on 2/12/02 11:48 PM, Jebvbva@AOL.COM at Jebvbva@AOL.COM wrote: I believe that that wword is a good old anglosaxon word and perhaaaps in
those days was not considered that bad. It was, it was. John Cleland's Fanny Hill (perhaps the greatest pornographic
book of the 18th century) never uses that good old anglo saxon *word* even
once in the whole book. The literary legend has it that Cleland wrote Fanny
Hill while in debtor's prison and was released on the promise that he'd
never write another. I dunno how that worked, legally, but the fact is he
didn't write another. Of course, sailors didn't consider it bad at all. Merely an intensifier. Or
perhaps less than that--Eric Patridge has pointed out that the *word*, as
used in the military, is only a sign that a noun is coming.
Just getting started on DI, I may be repeating comments already made. 1. On page 29 (of my Norton), after Stephen's sufferings over Diana have
been the subject for some time, Jack says to Stephen, "You always was
lucky at cards." Does he consciously intend the tacit corollary? 2. Most authors foreshadow with excruciating heavyhandedness, but on page
36, O'Brian's foreshadowing of the book's most dramatic scene much later
is nicely ironic in view of what actually follows. A long sentence
describing all the Leopard's guns mentions the brass nines as
stern-chasers in what is almost an afterthought, and then Jack goes on to
the thoroughly wrong prediction that the sheer "weight of metal... [will
be] enough to blow any Dutch of French frigate out of the water: for they
have no ship of the line in the Spice Island..." And yet it was those
brass nines that made all the difference against a larger ship... Hoping to catch up over the weekend, We've seen in gunroom how O'Brian shows animals in parallel with his people.
There were two horse scenes at the beginning of Desolation Island. Who were
the people these horses were compared to? One on page 13, "At this juncture
a terrible animal appeared among the builders' rubble, a low dull-blue
creature that might have been a pony if it had had any ears." Was this Mrs
Williams with her blue hair frizzed, and she didn't listen to anyone?
One on page 17, Jack buys a filly, "a fine creature, perhaps a shine too
fine, even flashy; slightly ewe-hocked; and surely that want of barrel would
denote a lack of bottom? An evil-tempered ear and eye." Diana?
Perhaps it was Kimber? Or Wray?
Well, as Diana doesn't play too great a part in DI, I'd suspect the
flashy filly does not represent her, but she doesn't seem very
Wogan-like either. Perhaps a prefiguring of Miss Amanda Smith?
Incidentally, unless the passage was quoted incorrectly, POB made a
slip here. When criticizing a horse's conformation, it's "cow-hocked"
and "ewe-necked." Cow hocks incline inward toward each other and ewe
necks have a dip just in front of the withers. My take on it is that Jack is essentailly saying "The way things are going,
OF COURSE it'll be another --- woman, just my fucking luck."
He's betting that it will be another woman, because that is the worst (in his
mind) result, and he's feeling a tad hipped at the moment.
Janet wrote: Given the obviousness of the variable usage of expletives, I'm persuaded
the master wordsmith had a purpose. Consider the variations as a shading
device, a subtle tool of character: Warning: expletive not deleted below. This is how I've always thought of it too. If the speaker is talking in his normal way, POB seems to treat the word as the speaker would. A foremast jack would regard "fuck" as a perfectly ordinary adjectival word, and POB would write it in full to show that it didn't mean anything. An officer would use the word, but know he was speaking impolitely, and POB would show that by using "--------". When an officer used the word meaningfully, with emotion and for effect, POB would spell it in full, to characterise its shock. Nick Coleman wrote:
This is how I've always thought of it too.
If the speaker is talking in his normal way, POB seems to treat the word as
the speaker would. A foremast jack would regard "fuck" as a perfectly ordinary
adjectival word, and POB would write it in full to show that it didn't mean
anything. An officer would use the word, but know he was speaking impolitely,
and POB would show that by using "--------". When an officer used the word meaningfully,
with emotion and for effect, POB would spell it in full, to characterise its
shock. This makes perfectly good sense, in theory; only, in addition to the one counterexample
I have already cited, here is another, from DI this time:
"Otherwise it was taken as a matter of course that Captain Aubrey should rescue
a drowning man; it was perfectly well known in the service that he had already
saved a score or so, most of them, as he freely admitted, quite worthless. Two
were aboard the Leopard at this very moment, the one a monoglot Finn and the
other a harsh, deeply stupid man called Bolton; the Finn said nothing, but Bolton
conceived a mortal jealousy of Herapath, and spoke of his foolhardy presumption,
infamous character, and contemptible physique in very shocking terms. 'He'll
live, mark my words,' he said. 'He'll live, until they hang him by the ----
neck: he would have been a gallows deal better off, left where he was, the toad.'" Admittedly we don't know what the adjective is that POB has blanked out;
but I bet it wasn't "scrawny." This is another exception to the
proposed rule, it seems to me . . . -------------------- As some may know, I have been helping out with the collection and
posting of the Group Read archives. By the end of the day yesterday I
had completed the first week's worth of coding for DI, and what a week
it was! Along with many thought-provoking ideas it featured the
wonderful (or should I say Dread?) Tooth Thread, in which members far
cleverer than I came up with every conceivable variation on the
theme--so thoroughly that, despite my eagerness, my impoverished
imagination was unable to contribute a single original thought. So
instead I composed a lament, which I humbly submit: -------------------- How nifty a verse! How true to the tooth! . . . he said drily. To the apprehensive beefeater sitting on the rocks, by the root canal,
with a gap-toothed grin.
Chuck (thinking that justice is for him (cold and cold.))
It seems odd (to me) that the book's main female character is essentially
defined as a lesser version of the canon's offstage female lead. So,
Stephen can have power over the weaker version of Diana and manipulate her
as he is in no position to do with Diana herself. And she even comes with
her own lesser version of Stephen. The sheer weirdness of all this is
striking me a lot more during my current reading of DI. I guess it's a
way to keep Diana present in the series without actually having her appear
in the pages, a good delaying tactic; so maybe with DI O'Brian realized he
would be writing a lot of these books and couldn't allow much progress or
resolution between Stephen and Diana from volume to volume. And yet...some time back, Charlezzzz (who only had four z's then) quoted a
message neatly analyzing some events late in the canon... [WARNING : BIG SPOILERS HERE] ...Diana abandons Bridget, who Stephen then cures, Diana briefly sees
Bridget healthy before she dies; and the message pointed out how all of
this so neatly fits as literary reversal/revenge for the circumstances of
O'Brian's own daughter and divorce, a sort of Bad Mother Gets Punished
scenario. This time through the canon, it feels to me more and more that
O'Brian genuinely dislikes Diana, or rather that he is using her to
express his dislike of...um, I'm in trouble here...well, a certain
conception he has of some women? I realize that in places he writes Diana with sympathy as frustrated by
the constraints of her time and place, and that the admiring portrayal of
her sheer animal grace feels genuine. But this time through the canon
those passages don't seem to counterbalance his portrayal of all the pain
he has her cause, all the twisted sadism and masochism between her and
Stephen.
Anyway, I'm not sure what to make of the overt Wogan-as-lesser-Villiers
aspect of DI, whether on balance it improves the book or whether the same
plot and juxtaposition could better have been handled more subtly.
Thought I was up to speed with gargon 'Tell it to the Marines'- Yep- no doubt about it- definitly 2nd World War
-young wet behind the ears Americans fightin' in Europe.
They were welcome,they were brave,well fed, probably better lookin than the
average Euro But and here's the rub -they were 'gullable'(ask Charlezzzzz bout that)they
would believe anything you told them! And so the phrase 'Tell it to the Marines' evolved Or so I thought
gargon Jargon ? Is it possible that it derived from an even earlier expression I remember my
grandfather using: "Tell it to the horse marines"? (i.e. adding the ridicule
of a highly unlikely combat unit.) Kevin, wondering if horse marines use sea horses, in TO. The phrase is used in DI
And i checked it up in the library at lunchtime today.
I was told by the OED-'In comman usage in England by 1806' Learning as I live The phrase is used in DI In what connotation, please? gullability or deafness? In what connotation, please? gullability or deafness? alec replies A disagreement about currents and ice-with Babbington showing away(page 249
harper) Babbington was showing away,with his Newfoundland Banks;he might as well
keep that for his Newfoundland dog,or tell it to the Marines.
so it seems to meaan- don't bother telling it to me, , he might as well tell
his dog or a dumb marine. Might this perhaps be one of those instances where POB playfully clenches a
phrase, with reference to its naval origins as well as customary usage? (I find
the Canon's peppered with them and relish every 'in the offing" and "devil to
pay".) I distinctly remember reading that the antebellum Jefferson Davis used the
phrase when he was Secr. of War, or a U.S. Senator. The context led me to infer
the meaning 'that no one else would believe it.' I think it was in one of Shelby Foote's trilogy. I have puzzled over this for some time, and can't resolve it to my own satisfaction.
Lissuns generally know about the "lost paragraph" that dropped out of some editions
of HMSS (see http://www.hmssurprise.org/Resources/lost_para.html);
is it possible that there is another missing passage in DI? My Norton paperback edition of DI has, at p. 178: (Stephen speaking):" 'These are all recent infections, Mr Herapath; and since
our Gipsy woman is continence itself, sure the only source is Mrs Wogan's servant
Peg. For you are to observe that although a protracted voyage may bring about
a wonderful increase in sodomitical practices, these are the wounds of Venus
herself. A fireship is among us, and her unlucky name is Peggy Barnes.' Stephen brushed this aside. 'How do they get at her? and how can she be rendered
chaste? A serricunnium, a belt for that purpose, is not provided in ships of
the fourth rate,' "etc. .... WHAT did Stephen brush aside? Some mute objection from Herapath? WHAT IS MISSING
HERE? (as usual, if this has been discussed and solved before, apologies for
wasting the Gunroom's time)... -------------------- Hey,
I had no idea about this missing paragraph, just checked and it ain't in my
Norton paperback. I also have puzzled over the DI passage you mention, had even
marked it down to ask the Gunroom about.
At first I thought perhaps there was a misprint with the names, as Stephen appears
to be dismissing himself, but both quotes are surely Stephen himself talking.
There MUST be a missing bit; some equivocating words of Herapath's perhaps.
Mine is the Norton paperback and the error occurs at the bottom of 178. Does
anyone out there have an edition that makes more sense?
-V
I always took the "brushed aside" phrase as a reference to Stephen's moving
tangentially to a new aspect of the topic. He had made the first conclusion,
then moved on to evaluate the ongoing problem. Some such explanation occurred to me, but it does not seem to ring true. Rather
than shifting gears or putting a distraction behind him, Stephen with his next
questions seems to focus more directly on the question he has just brought up,
namely the problem of Peggy's sexual activities. It still feels to me like there
is something missing. Does anyone have an earlier, or at least a different,
edition of this book? My Norton hardcover has the same apparently missing segment in that section.
I tend to agree with the lissuns who feel that something has been left
out...-RD, wondering who got M & C first edition...
My 1979 published Fontana paperback (Fifth Impression February 1989) has the
same glitch, I don't think they would redo the edition between impressions
so it goes a long way back. DI was first published in UK hardback in 1978.
I am intriqued, by the 'brushing aside' thread. And I'm also amazed that no one has made a suggestion as to what the missing
'words' might be. Some lissuns seem to know the canon so well that I thought
they could intuitively concoct a line/s. I would guess that Herepath would feel a pang of guilt. He had yet told
Stephen of his connection with Mrs Wogan- with whom he was probably by now
once again 'having his wicked way'.
Stephen had said ..
....Mr Herepath,and since our Gypsey woman is continence itself, sure the
only source is Mrs Woga..(Herepath's heart misses a beat/face reddens) ..n's
servant Peg. 'I am sure Mrs Wogan has no idea' blurted Herepath. Hey!! You geniuses out there -any other ideas- a bottle of mandatetto for
the most convincing. alec
Keen eyed Steve Ross noted the discontinuity of Stephen's conversation
with Herapath in Ch. 6 of DI, p178 in later editions:
... A fireship is among us, and her unlucky name is Peggy Barnes.'
Stephen brushed this aside. 'How do they get at her? and how can she be
rendered chaste? A serricunnium, a belt for that purpose, is not provided in
ships of the fourth rate,' "etc. ....
At 7:22 PM +0000 2/17/2, Alec O'Flaherty generously offered: Hey!! You geniuses out there -any other ideas- a bottle of mandatetto for
the most convincing. On behalf of Himself, I offer the missing comment made by Herapath,
'But sir, as she herself confesses, she is with child.'
As found in the Stein & Day first American edition, p 150. How did we ever manage before the Internet? There is a network of 40
libraries locally that share a website. A search for Desolation Island,
and I quickly have a list of everyone of them that has a Stein & Day copy
of DI, and whether it is currently on the shelf. A few more clicks, and I
check for the nearest one that is open today. When Alec sends that bottle, I'll drink a toast to the Minuteman Library
Network. From: Don Seltzer On behalf of Himself, I offer the missing comment made by Herapath,
'But sir, as she herself confesses, she is with child.'
As found in the Stein & Day first American edition, p 150.
(then Don explains in Sherlock Holmes detail how he tracked down the
'missing words')
When Alec sends that bottle, I'll drink a toast to the Minuteman Library Network.
Don
A glass of Mandaretto with you sir! Unfortunately the 'small print' on the bottle prevents the re-export of
Mandaretto to- and I quote 'any country that had introduced prohibition in
the 20th Century.'
However,on your behalf I have undertaken to ensure that the bottle will not
go to waste. Gulp.
alec
Gulp
I am amazed. Thank you, Don. I shall pencil this into my Norton
paperback right away. Glad I am that I took the time to read a
POB thread. My suspicions were well-founded then? My amazement at having been shown correct
in this instance is matched only by my joy at the dispatch with which the mystery
was solved. Sir, I am speechless with admiration! Thanks, Don, for taking this
seriously enough to track it down. [a humble suggestion: Ought this newly-discovered lacuna to be added to
the website, at or about the same place as the "lost paragraph?"]
-------------------- Well done, sir! Jerry wrote: Don't see that it detracts in any way - and it's interesting taken as an
example of POB reworking a familiar scenario to see how it plays with
different characters. In this way Wogan gives us Clarissa Oakes, whose
circumstance foreshadow those of the doomed adulterous stowaway wife in
FSOTW (I think: psycho husband murders the fornicators, says they fell off
a cliff?). Then there's the two diplomatic mission to the East Indies, and
the list goes on.
In "The Unknown Shore," POB shows us a little of what Stephen Maturin's childhood
MIGHT have been like. I think that Clarissa Oakes shows us a bit of what Emma
Hamilton's childhood might have been like, but all-of-a-sudden I wonder about
Diana's childhood. We know nothing, absolutely nothing, of Diana's childhood.
Could Clarissa's tale have hinted at something that made Diana the way she was?
In a message dated 2/15/02 6:38:02 PM Central Standard Time,
kmclough@SYMPATICO.CA writes:
horse marines
The prim Mr. Brewer in his "Dictionary of Phrase and Fable" says: 'There is no such force. The Royal Marines are either artillery or infantry;
there are no cavalry marines. To belong to the "Horse Marines" is a joke,
meaning an awkward lubberly recruit. ' How old, I wondered, is this song my parents used to quote "I'm Captain Jenks of the horse marines, Found it (words and music) on the web at which says "An English music hall number that was very popular in the
U.S. around the turn of the (last) century: It survives chiefly
as a singing square dance call. RG" So, presumably, they had heard it from =their= parents.
[HMSS] Linois should be reasoned with --
This is neither question nor answer. One line which has always struck
me is Stephen's description of the (later) luckless Lieutenant Howard:
"The man I cannot heartily commend: (On page 180 of the Norton paperback, two pages after the missing
sentence). It's just such a fine example of something-ic something-ameter (curses
on a half-remembered half-classical education!) that I've looked for
similar sentences and phrases, but none stand out so well.
Not as profound as that but a half sentance that I read a few times to take
in all the scene and the implications.
-he put on his comforter,a pilot jacket,and a woollen hat,borrowed Jack's
common telescope-much as he loved Stephen,Jack would not let him have his
best-and found a sheltered corner by the shivering hens.
I know if we all started posting favourite lines -that would be the end of
this site, but pray indulge me on this one occassion.
Not being very practically minded as far as navigation and seamanship
are concerned, I have a dumb question. But first, another dumb
question, inspired by DI:
p. 116: It seems to me that what is rapidly diminishing here is the latitude
(the north-south coordinate), not the longitude. Or am I all wet? (I
have heard some reference in the Gunroom to a well-known occasion on
which POB confuses lat. and long.; is this it, or is it a different
instance?--BTW I assume that p. 146, "The Leopard had lost the
north-east trades in 12'30°N" is a mere typesetter's error) . . . OK, now for the REALLY dumb question. I know there are people on this
list who have actually done this, and can answer:
Just how do you observe noon anyway? Theoretically it is a simple
matter of watching the sun climb to its zenith and then marking the
exact moment at which it stops and then starts declining. OK, but isn't
this pretty difficult, since the sun moves fairly slowly? The
observation needs to be done with precision, I assume, since all the
methods of determining longitude depended on knowing local noon pretty
exactly. Thank you, John B., for the notice concerning A&E's "Longitude." When I
read the book recently I enjoyed it but was a bit frustrated by the
author's habit of introducing a fascinating topic and then moving on
quickly to other things. I would have liked a lot more exploration of
various things, besides noon observations. -------------------- Steve Ross Steve Ross wrote: (I have heard some reference in the Gunroom to a well-known occasion on
which POB confuses lat. and long. These have been noticed by many readers before, and one even had the temerity to question the Master about it. His response was that he was left-handed and therefore sometimes got things mixed up. Just how do you observe noon anyway? The officers-- the watch lieutenant, the ship's master, maybe the Captain, all the midshipmen, and as many others who were free to do so-- would assemble on the quarterdeck a little before noon, and would take sightings with their sextants every five to ten seconds until the sun started to decline, whereupon the Captain would be informed and he would tell the quartermaster to turn the glass, designating that time as ship's noon. The chronometer would be consulted and the various calculations made to determine the ship's location.
Bill Nyden There are several places where POB's lat-long confusion was not picked up.
DI as you noticed and in TGS he has Aubrey's ship rush eastward in the
Roaring Forties going through degrees of latitude every day. As for the actual moment of noon, although for rough time-keeping noticing
the sun's decline in altitude would suffice, I think that a more accurate
method would be to measure the height and time aclose to noon and then wait
until the sun came back down to the altitude and record the time the second
time and split the difference. Adam Quinan 'Grab a chance and you won't be sorry for a might-have-been' Adam wrote: There are several places where POB's lat-long confusion was not picked up.
My favourite was in "HMS Surprise", when they sighted the China
fleet somewhere in the high Arctic. I'm left handed but I noticed it straight away. Well, not at the
first reading. Actually not in the first twenty years of reading. I
picked it up when I read the excerpt in the "Mammoth Book of Man Of
War Stories", or whatever the volume was called. Martin @ home: The noon sighting was most useful for determing the latitude by the height
of the sun. For determing longitude, as both Steve's question and Bill's answer
suggest, observing the exact moment when the sun reached its zenith was critical
and required a fair bit of skill. An error of 4 seconds in time would translate
into an error of a mile in the tropics. Adam has mentioned an alternate, easier method for determing the exact time
of local noon, which was called the method of equal altitudes. Using a
watch, an observation was made of the sun several hours before noon, say 10
o'clock. The sextant or octant would be left locked at the angle of
observation. Around 2 o'clock, the officer would begin watching the sun
again, waiting for the moment that it exactly matched the previous setting
of the sextant. This time would be noted, let us say 2:10 pm. Local noon
would have been the midpoint between the two sightings, or 12:05 on the
watch. Thanks to Bill and all who replied. I have a fairly good idea of how it
worked now (the process Bill describes is familiar from POB, of
course). I guess what was bothering me was that the captain orders
"make it noon" at the point agreed upon by the assembled officers and
young gentlemen; but from most descriptions of the process, you can't
really tell for sure that noon has been reached until the sun is
actually on the way back DOWN again. So I figured this might introduce
some error. Would Jack "make it noon" right at the hover-point? Or
would he bracket the observations, do a calculation and then say
something like "it was noon 37 minutes, 3 seconds ago"?
(Related to this: I have always had a mental image of a ship keeping
track of longitude by means of two chronometers, or one chronometer and
one clock, one set to Greenwich and one set to local time. But now I
realize this would mean re-setting the local clock at each noon
observation. Was this done, or was the local time only a notional one,
used for navigation but not for shipboard timekeeping, apart from the
noontime turning of the glass?)
-------------------- Steve Ross Adam Quinan said: As for the actual moment of noon, although for rough time-keeping noticing
the sun's decline in altitude would suffice, I think that a more accurate method
would be to measure the height and time aclose to noon and then wait until the
sun came back down to the altitude and record the time the second time and split
the difference. Correct. It is fairly easy in theory to see when the sun stops moving and reverses direction. The action of the sextant is to brings the sun's image down to line up with the horizon. This provides a reference point to judge the movement of the sun. The sun starts to slow its movement, "hovers" for a few seconds and then reverses direction. At the point of hovering, it is local noon. I say "in theory", because on a moving deck without a straight horizon due to waves, it ain't so easy. As well, you have to adjust for your height above the sea: deck height, mast height or wherever you are observing from.
( If you look through a pair of binoculars on a tripod it's surprising how quickly stars and the moon move through the field of view in the eyepiece. (Don't try this with the sun!!! You'll burn your eyes in a milli-second. Sextants have powerful filters so as to prevent harm.) The movement is, of course, the rotation of the Earth.)
Regards, In a message dated 2/18/2002 3:45:47 PM Central Standard Time, skross@LSU.EDU
writes:
Just how do you observe noon anyway? Theoretically it is a simple matter
of watching the sun climb to its zenith and then marking the exact moment at
which it stops and then starts declining. Just one of the many things which made navigation sometimes more of an art
than a science. Also probably one of the reasons all officers (including
mids) with sextants would take noon observations.
Knowing approximately when local noon will be (what idiot with a quartz
crystal watch wouldn't) I start taking sights around 5 minutes before local
noon. I try to take 2 or 3 a minute, or even more frequently if conditions
are right (roll, pitch and yaw, as well as atmosphere, being the more
significant conditions. There can be others, sleep deprivation status,
stomach equilibrium, etc.) You do this as the sun rises, and until it is
noticeably declining. You wind up with a series of observations, which if done fairly accurately
will give you a bell curve, and the rate of climb and descent. This allows
you to make a fairly good estimate of the sun's highest point if you haven't
made an observation at the exact highest point (local Noon), and the time it
was at its highest. From then on it is all math.
By the way, the sun moves extremely rapidly -- especially when one is trying
to take a sighting, bringing it down to a wildly gyrating horizon. Chicago
Tribune this morning noted that at 42°N. Latitude the apparent speed of the
sun is around 720 MPH, or aobut one minute every 12 miles. No wonder I
confidently placed us in downtown Manitowoc a couple of races ago. (Thank
God for Loran and GPS. Not as romantic, but a darn sight more accurate.)
Of course, after the first observation the sextant is set just about where it
should be, and in theory the subsequent adjustments for each sight are fine
ones. Please notice I said "in theory," and this is another reason for
taking a number of observations. Some show themselves so out of place as to
probably not make one's list of great observations, and like some figure
skating scores, need be thrown out. John Donohue I think this conversation is about a year old, but here goes again. Bear in
mind, I was a very "rule-of-thumb" navigator, so some of this may not be in
the manuals. Modern navigators do not reset their ship's time each day at local noon. We
observe the local time, or Greenwich Time, or something along those lines. But
anyway, you figure out about where you're going to be on the ocean at Local
Apparent Noon, or LAN. Five or ten minutes before that, which might be 11:18
or 12:32 or whatever, you take your trusty sextant and your watch on deck and
take an observation of the sun. 30 seconds later you take another. If that second
observation is higher than the first you're in good shape. you haven't missed
it and the sun is still climbing. From thence you continue to observe the sun
at 15, 20 or 30 second intervals - whatever your personal routine is. You will
eventually notice that the sun is slowing down, i.e. it's rate of climb is getting
slower. The change between sights is less. This becomes more and more noticeable
the closer it comes to the zenith. At this point (and this is sort of an intuitive
instant) you would start using shorter intervals, and eventually you will be
keeping the sextant at your eye full time. At the exact moment the sun reaches
the zenith it "hangs". I don't know how else to explain the phenomenon, but
when you see it happening you know exactly that you're at the peak. You whip
the sextant down from your eye and note down the time. This is LAN, and when
you transfer the angle of the sun and the time into the appropriate blanks in
your reduction table voila! You derive a latitude from the signs height, and
you derive your longitude from the time differential between your LAN and GMT.
That's all there is to it. OK, that's the rough, singlehanded sailor's approach to the problem. I'm told, and I've never done this except for practice, that the way navigators
in the US Navy did this was to have the sight taker with the sextant reading
out angles to one of the QM's who logged them all down. This continued until
the angle started declining, meaning the sun was past the zenith. The QM would
then plot all of the heights on a piece of graph paper - height of the sun on
the x-axis and time on the y-axis. When all of them were plotted you take a
flexible batten and draw a smooth pure curve through all of the points. You
will find that the highest point on that curve may well fall at some intermediate
point between two sights - with this method it's pure coincidence if it falls
exactly on a sight. But, by reading the time of the high point on the curve
(or the theoretical zenith) you've established graphically when LAN occurred.
Same sight reduction formulae are then applied and the same information extracted.
On paper, the second one certainly sounds more exact. My problem is I was a
small boat navigator, generally working by myself and it's just too much stuff
to keep track of. Also, from a theoretical point, I always asked what happens
on a very high speed craft (like a destroyer at flank speed)? Won't the vessel
motion skew the curve? I like the feeling of knowing I "caught" the sun right
at it's apex, but that's just me. Of course now it's all a moot point, you just
whip out your handheld GPS and read off your lat and long and that's it! BTW, I always grimaced when I read that passage about
the steadily declining longitude. Both POB and his
editors missed that mistake...........but what the heck.
Half the people don't catch it, and the other half know
what he meant anyway. I just finished Desolation Island and remember the last episodes so well,
the first chapters hardly at all, but the Leopard-Waakzaamheid chase very
very well. On this third go, I read and re-read carefully when Jack first
sees the Waakzaamheid, and just how his ship was made so vulnerable. He
just had to "edge away and see what I can make of him." It was almost certain that this was the Waakzaamheid, and he knew
very well the risk he was taking, but, being Jack, he was confident that he
could take a peek and sail away. Stephen asks him, "You do not mean to fight the Dutchman, so?"
And Jack replies, "Good heavens, no! What a fellow you are, Stephen.
Wantonly tackle a seventy-four with thirty-two and twenty-four-pounders and
six hundred men aboard? If the Leopard, half manned and with half the
Dutchman's weight of metal, can slip past him to the Cape, then she must do
so, with her tail between her legs. Ignominious flight is the order of the
day......" and so on. And then he yearns for Tom Pullings, his able
lieutenant, left behind in Recife with many others to recover from the gaol
fever that had debilitated the crew. After encountering the doldrums and gaol fever, with women aboard
and men uneasy about the rumored ghost, why would Jack take a chance like
this to "edge up," when he had so many safe miles between him and the
Dutchman? It has to be the old, younger Jack, still hoping for action on a
voyage that had turned into nothing more than a ferry run of prisoners for
Botany Bay, and who probably could not have swallowed that "ignominious
flight" very well. And he may very well have killed the Dutch captain's kin with his stern
chasers when they first engaged, as later he saw that the captain had
changed his blue coat to a black one--no wonder the Waakzaamheid chased
them so far south. The entire episode is testosterone brought to a high level, two
fighter pilots in the sky, two gladiators in the ring, with awful
consequences for captains and crews. Jack of course, has to pay for this
adventure with all the work and care to keep his ship afloat and re-rigged
at the end, but he has also risked his crew's lives. Of course, this is a riveting episode in the series and I'd hate
to have missed it! I love the few places in the book where Jack and Stephen
discourse--too few places-- and the humor, e.g. when Stephen hopes to
exorcise the rumored ghost, the chaplain's "angry cry of Mumbo-Jumbo,
Stephen's perhaps unfortunate reply of Venus-Wenus." At least at the end, we can be happy for Stephen who has finally
been able to study natural philosophy to his heart's content on Desolation
Island. When I think of the scenes and the atmosphere in this book, one
can't help but think "genius." I am always amazed at Jack--how did he come to learn so much
seamanship so young? He certainly absorbed everything he'd ever seen and
heard on his early voyages. I could go on and on about his many
attributes--he can move in nice society, turn a nice phrase, present a
cheerful countenance, and try to hearten his crew under the most difficult
conditions. He sincerely loves Sophie and his children and Stephen. He
loves music and mathematics and astronomy, and yet as others have pointed
out, we never see the inner workings of his mind--except the practical
musings upon his ship and its crew. Both men write, but Jack writes to
Sophie and is not able to tell her the starkest details of his voyages nor
his hopes and fears; Stephen writes in his Journal his secret thoughts and
opens his mind to us. At the end of DI, my heart goes out to Jack when he
explains how he must try to fashion a rudder without an anvil and coal.
"Seeing Stephen's grave, concerned expression he said, 'It is a great
relief to whine a little, rather than play the perpetual encouraging
know-all, so I lay it on a trifle thick: don't take me too seriously,
Stephen.' " The loneliness of command. I didn't find any more references to Arcturus, which Jack had
pointed out to Stephen in Hampshire, but the moon, "with old Saturn there,"
in a clear sky gives Jack his longitude so that he can navigate to
Desolation Island. Always now alert to POB's references, I looked on the Web and all
I can find is: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cassini/MoreInfo/mytholgy.html
Is this a pointer to an older, wiser, worn-down Jack? We shall see, in the
following books. I don't know if I'm wiser, but I'm more worn-down after
once again living through the awful travail of the voyage south. I must go
treat my chilblains! Linnea wrote: Amidst much well-deserved praise of the book as a whole: The entire episode is testosterone brought to a high level, two fighter
pilots in the sky, two gladiators in the ring, with awful consequences for captains
and crews. Jack of course, has to pay for this adventure with all the work and
care to keep his ship afloat and re-rigged at the end, but he has also risked
his crew's lives. Of course, this is a riveting episode in the series and I'd
hate to have missed it! When I think of the scenes and the atmosphere in this book, one can't help
but think "genius." Well stated thoughts, and I will agree (again) that DI, if not the very
best of the POBs, should at least be kept at the top in the pure
category of rip-roaring sea yarn. I was paying a bit closer attention this time around too, with the aim
of seeing just what it is that makes the Waakzaamheid chase so
compelling. I observed one thing, along with POB's general "narrative
brilliance." On pp. 224-225, as the chase is growing even hotter, Jack
sends the bosun's party aloft to attach hawsers to the mast, and
assembles the men to tally and belay, pulling them tight to transfer the
great press of wind to the hull of the ship: "So it went, on either side: short sharp pulls aft from the chess-trees,
forward from the snatch-blocks, and the hawsers tightened evenly,
tighter and tighter yet, a most careful balancing of forces, until the
wind sung the same note in each, and each pair was iron-taut, supporting
its mast with extraordinary strength. . . ."
[snip] "The yard rose up; the mast took the strain without a groan; the
Leopard's bow-wave grew higher still with her increasing speed. Now the
spritsail topsail followed, while to ease her plunging they hauled up
the mainsail, giving all the wind to her forecourse: she sailed easier
yet, with no slackening in her pace, clearly outrunning the Dutchman,
although he had shaken out his foretopsail reef." This is only one short bit out of the whole extended, exciting narrative, and
maybe not the most important; but besides being an interesting description of
an unusual bit of maritime lore, IMHO it serves as a literary device that grips
our attention even more firmly. By the end of this passage, we almost physically
FEEL the tension that is transferred to the hull, and by a sort of sympathy,
the tension of the entire chase is heightened as well. Just one more bit of
POB magic . . . [BTW aren't these hawsers later retrieved, and spliced to form a new cable
for the makeshift anchor that once again helps save the ship's life once they
reach Desolation Island?] Linnea also wrote: I didn't find any more references to Arcturus, which Jack had pointed out
to Stephen in Hampshire, but the moon, "with old Saturn there," in a clear sky
gives Jack his longitude so that he can navigate to Desolation Island.
Is this a pointer to an older, wiser, worn-down Jack? We shall see, in
the following books. I don't know if I'm wiser, but I'm more worn-down after
once again living through the awful travail of the voyage south. I must go treat
my chilblains! Very perceptive, again! Myself, I have been pondering whether or not
there is anything more to be derived from the "Underworld" theme as
first proposed by Harry Clark, and added to by many lissuns including
Chzzz, with his identification of an Orpheus. I don't know if anyone
else has suggested this yet, but I didn't find it in Harry's essay: How
about Babbington's Newfoundland as Cerberus? I suppose it may not work,
since, as compared with the mythical watchdog, this one is a trifle
short in the matter of heads. One more observation about this dog,
though: its name is Pollux, which seems appropriate enough for a
sailor's pet (Castor and Pollux were thought by some to be the patron
deities of seafarers: see Homeric Hymn No. 33, quoted below). What else do we know about Castor and Pollux? In Greek mythology, as
Castor lay dying, Pollux prayed to Zeus to remain with him. Finally he
was granted half-immortality for himself and his brother: They would
spend alternate days on Olympus and ... you guessed it ... in the
Underworld. How's that for wrestling with allegories?
N.B. the Dioscuri as patrons of seafarers:
Homeric Hymn No. 33: "O bright-eyed Muses, tell about the sons of Zeus, the Tyndaridae, Not for nothing do they call Homer the "Patrick O'Brian of the ancient
world" ;-) -------------------- Steve Ross From: Steve Ross "So it went, on either side: short sharp pulls aft from the chess-trees,
forward from the snatch-blocks, and the hawsers tightened evenly, tighter and
tighter yet, a most careful balancing of forces, until the wind sung the same
note in each, and each pair was iron-taut, supporting its mast with extraordinary
strength. . . ." Like tuning a musical instrument. Diana has daggered Stephen in the heart, and he returns
dispiritedly to the Grapes, and finds his mail waiting
for him. What is he to read with Diana so heavy in his
thoughts? Not a random journal to be sure: "The
Syphilitic Preceptor" (with the author's compliments, to
boot). A thing that struck me during my re-read of "Desolation Island" was PO'B's
use of the word "desolation", which he uses sparingly, but at certain
important turning points in the novel, suggesting possible hidden
signicances to the book's title. These are the instances I noted:
1) Diana has left Stephen again (p. 47): "In a brief flare of rebellion, anger and frustration he thought of his
enormous expense of spirit these last few weeks, of the mounting hope that
he had indulged and fostered in spite of his judgement and of their
frequently violent disagreements; but the flame died, leaving not so much an
active sorrow as a black and wordless desolation." As an aside, I'll note that "expense of spirit" seems to be a quote from
Shakespeare's Sonnet 129, known as the "Lust Sonnet". PO'B quotes a bit
more of the sonnet ("expense of spirit in a waste of shame") in his short
story "On the Wolfsberg". (Glancing back at our "Wolfsberg" discussion, I
see Charlezzzz asked, "Doesn't Maturin somewhere think of this sonnet? Or at
least quote a few words?": right you are (were), Charlezzzzz, and here's
where he did it.)
Here's the complete sonnet: The expense of spirit in a waste of shame 2) Stephen discovers Herapath's relationship with Mrs. Wogan (pp. 130-131): "On his side the conversation consisted of endearments for the most part,
none particularly original, but quite touching in their evident sincerity,
and of ejaculations; on her side I distinguished little apart from that
absurd purling laugh -- exceptional happiness in the mirth this time -- but
it was clear that their acquaintance was of long standing, their
relationship close, and that she was happy to have a friend in this
desolation."
3) Jack before the climactic battle with the Waakzaamheid (p. 220): "The long, even fairly heavy swell lifted him and set him down at a measured
pace, so that sometimes his horizon was no more than three miles away, and
sometimes he saw an enormous disk of ocean, a cold, uneasy sea, endless
miles of desolation, the comfortless element in which he was at home." 4) Desolation appears as hope in the form of Desolation Island (p. 274): "There is land down in about 49° 44'S and 69E. A Frenchman by the name of
Trémarec discovered it -- Desolation Island."
"Desolation" as part of "Desolation Island" appears many more times after
this, but here's a particularly noteworthy instance:
5) The American whaling captain is glad to have landed on DI (p. 316): "The absence of pain, the presence of coffee, made Mr Putnam a far more
agreeable companion; he was very complimentary about Stephen's abilities,
and he blessed his stars that he had put into Desolation, though when he saw
the Leopard in there, he had very nearly turned about, and he would have,
too, but that the tide was on the make, the breeze in his teeth, and no
other sheltered harbour, with greenstuff at hand, that he knew of anywhere
under his lee."
From:Chuck Minne
Sent: 02/07/2002 10:19 PM PST
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP RD: The tooth theme in DI
From:Ruth A Abrams
Sent:02/09/2002 06:54 PM EST
Subject: [POB] Group Read:DI:Mrs. Wogan
From:Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: 02/10/2002 12:09 AM GMT
Subject: Re: [POB] Group Read:DI:Mrs. Wogan
From:Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: 02/10/2002 02:00 PM GMT
Subject: [POB] Groupread:DI Jack's change of mind-
From:Stephen Chambers
Sent: 02/10/2002 04:31 PM GMT
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Jack's change of mind-
50° 48' 38" N 01° 09' 15" W
Approx. 180 inches above sea level
When the pin is pulled Mr Grenade is no longer our friend.
From:Batrinque@AOL.COM
Sent: 02/11/2002 08:13 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP: DI: The Horrible Old Leopard
41°37'52"N 72°22'29"W
From:Don Seltzer
Sent: 02/12/2002 10:53 AM EST
Subject: [POB] GRP:DI Young Byron
From:Charles Munoz
Sent: 02/12/2002 11:10 AM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP:DI Young Byron
Ten thousand fleets sweep over thee in vain;
Man marks the earth with ruin,--his control
Stops with the shore;--upon the watery plain
The wrecks are all thy deed, nor doth remain
A shadow of man's ravage, save his own,
When, for a moment, like a drop of rain,
He sinks into thy depths with bubbling groan,
Without a grave, unknelled, uncoffined, and unknown.
From:Gerry Strey
Sent: 02/12/2002 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP:DI Young Byron
Madison, Wisconsin
From:Charles Munoz
Sent: 02/12/2002 02:18 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP:DI Young Byron
From:"Gazulis, Theo"
Sent: 02/12/2002 04:41 PM
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP:DI Young Byron
37/54 N 122/29 W
From:Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: 02/12/2002 08:48 PM GMT
Subject: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
From:Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: 02/12/2002 08:59 PM GMT
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
From:Gerry Strey
Sent: 02/12/2002 02:59 PM
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
Madison, wisconsin
From:Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: 02/12/2002 09:38 PM GMT
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
From:Gerry Strey
Sent: 02/12/2002 03:49 PM
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
Madison, Wisconsin
From:Peter Mackay
Sent: 02/13/2002 09:50 AM ZE11
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
1. The chops were very very hot.
2. The chops were highly spiced.
From:Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: 02/12/2002 11:36 PM GMT
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
From:Marian Van Til
Sent: 02/12/2002 07:14 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
From:Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Sent: 02/12/2002 07:50 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
From:Astrid Bear
Sent: 02/12/2002 05:06 PM PST
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
From:Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: 02/13/2002 12:38 AM GMT
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
From:Aari Ludvigsen
Sent: 02/12/2002 08:16 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
Yes -- an expression of high probability. Interesting, though, to see Jack quoting
odds in the book that finds them so stacked against him at the card table....
I paid close attention in DI to swearing because of the recent list
discussion, and was surprised to find that "fucking" was written out at
least twice and "-------" used elsewhere. I can only imagine that "-------"
is used when someone is taking the Lord's name in vain (damning) rather than
in place of a coarse epithet.
-----------
Lat: 40° 44' 29" N Lon: 74° 0' 4" W
Greenwich Village
From:Aari Ludvigsen
Sent: 02/12/2002 08:27 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Jack's change of mind-
How far back did Jack's sense of being managed go?
From:Peter Mackay
Sent: 02/13/2002 12:57 PM ZE11
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
I paid close attention in DI to swearing because of the recent list discussion,
and was surprised to find that "fucking" was written out at least twice and
"-------" used elsewhere. I can only imagine that "-------" is used when someone
is taking the Lord's name in vain (damning) rather than in place of a coarse
epithet.
From:Aari Ludvigsen
Sent: 02/12/2002 09:55 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP:DI Young Byron + shipwreck foreshadow
"Stephen had read an account of the loss of the Wager." What account do we
think that might be?
"My grandad sailed with him when he was only a midshipman ... and many a
crack they had about their days on Chile after the Wager came to grief."
Norton p. 103
Lat: 40° 44' 29" N Lon: 74° 0' 4" W
Greenwich Village
From:Aari Ludvigsen
Sent: 02/12/2002 10:03 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Group Read:DI:Mrs. Wogan
From:Edmund Burton
Sent: 02/12/2002 09:29 PM
Subject: Re: [POB] Group Read:DI:Mrs. Wogan
From:Mary S
Sent: 02/12/2002 10:41 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
35° 58' 11" N
86° 48' 57" W
From:Mary S
Sent: 02/12/2002 10:41 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
35° 58' 11" N
86° 48' 57" W
From:Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Sent: 02/12/2002 11:45 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
From:Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Sent: 02/12/2002 11:48 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
From:Charles Munoz
Sent: 02/13/2002 12:04 AM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
From:Jerry Shurman
Snet: 02/13/2002 08:09 AM PST
Subject: [POB] GRP:DI:two small comments
Jerry
From:"P. Richman"
Sent: 02/13/2002 05:37 PM GMT
Subject: [POB] GRPRD:DI:horses
From:Susan Wenger
Sent: 02/13/2002 12:17 PM PST
Subject: [POB] GRPRD:DI:horses
From:Gerry Strey
Sent: 02/13/2002 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [POB] GRPRD:DI:horses
From:Vanessa Brown
Sent: 02/13/2002 02:30 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
From:Nick Coleman
Sent: 02/14/2002 07:47 AM ZE10
Subject: [POB] Dash & damn WAS [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
The "--------" is invariably used when persons of sensibility speak with deliberate,
pointed impropriety. In moments of high temper or fraught emotion, damneds and
suchlike are spelt out. If we hear the lower decks swear, it is in blunt anglosaxon,
not dashes. Just a theory ... waiting to be shot down.
Nick Coleman
njpc@ozemail.com.au
From:Steve Ross
Sent: 02/13/2002 03:17 PM
Subject: Re: [POB] Dash & damn WAS [POB] Groupread:DI Betting terms etc
(p. 123, after Herapath's fall from the masthead):
"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims." -- DI p. 67
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W
From:Steve Ross
Sent: 02/14/2002 10:44 AM
Subject: [POB] GRPRD DI: Tooth theme
when Charlezzzzz wondered what was the point of the tooth.
Restraint was cast off; the lissuns took the bit,
recognizing that here was occasion for wit--
the ensuing, amazing displays of their mental
dexterity gave birth to clenches, all dental.
But the Group Read must needs be recorded, forsooth!
So, pity the poor Gunroom archivist's fate,
whose unenvied task is to irruminate
on whether these bright pearls of wisdom should be
extracted--preserved for some poor soul to see
implanted online, at some far-future date.
No more cloud-castles! Time now to climb down beneath
to my job, where I hang by the skin of my . . .
Nahh, I won't go there.
"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims." -- DI p. 67
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W
From:Charles Munoz
Sent: 02/14/2002 03:12 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] GRPRD DI: Tooth theme
How tasty--like gin with a little vermouth.
From:Steve Ross
Sent: 02/14/2002 02:30 PM
Subject: Re: [POB] GRPRD DI: Tooth theme
From:Chuck Minne
Sent: 02/14/2002 09:48 PM PST
Subject: Re: [POB] GRPRD DI: Tooth theme
From:Jerry Shurman
Sent: 02/15/2002 07:42 AM PST
Subject: [POB] GRP:DI:Separated at birth?
From:Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: 02/16/2002 12:15 AM GMT
Subject: [POB] Group Read:DI-Tell it to The Marines
From:Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Sent: 02/15/2002 07:23 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Group Read:DI-Tell it to The Marines
I get the feeling that it is the opposite- that to "'tell it to the marines"
was to say- "Forget it" It was a waste of time to "tell it to the marines".
(They are pretty dense, you know)
From:Kevin
Sent: 02/15/2002 07:37 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Group Read:DI-Tell it to The Marines
79° 22' 33" W
From:Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: 02/16/2002 12:49 AM GMT
Subject: Re: [POB] Group Read:DI-Tell it to The Marines
From:Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Sent: 02/15/2002 11:30 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Group Read:DI-Tell it to The Marines
From:Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: 02/16/2002 04:55 AM GMT
Subject: Re: [POB] Group Read:DI-Tell it to The Marines
From:Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Sent: 02/16/2002 01:23 AM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Group Read:DI-Tell it to The Marines
Blatherin' John B
From: Janet Cook
Sent: 02/16/2002 08:22 PM ZE10
Subject: Re: [POB] Group Read:DI-Tell it to The Marines
Jane
From:Marshall Rafferty
Sent: 02/16/2002 09:11 PM PST
Subject: Re: [POB] Group Read:DI-Tell it to The Marines
From:Steve Ross
Sent: 02/15/2002 10:57 AM
Subject: [POB] GRP DI: A Minor Mystery
"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims." -- DI p. 67
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W
From:Vanessa Brown
Sent: 02/16/2002 12:26 AM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP DI: A Minor Mystery
From:MacKenna Charleson
Sent: 02/16/2002 12:33 AM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP DI: A Minor Mystery
From:Steven K Ross
Sent: 02/16/2002 03:33 PM
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP DI: A Minor Mystery
From:Rosemary Davis
Sent: 02/16/2002 08:36 PM EST
Subject: [POB] glitch in DI
From:Adam Quinan
Sent: 02/16/2002 08:47 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] glitch in DI
Please note my new e-mail address adam.quinan@rogers.com
From:Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: 02/17/2002 07:22 PM GMT
Subject: [POB] Fill in the gap- Stephen's brushing aside
etc ...and her unlucky name is Peggy Barnes.'
From:Don Seltzer
Sent: 02/17/2002 03:45 PM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP DI: A Minor Mystery
From:Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: 02/17/2002 09:06 PM GMT
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP DI: A Minor Mystery
From:Marshall Rafferty
Sent: 02/17/2002 04:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP DI: A Minor Mystery
From:Steve Ross
Sent: 02/18/2002 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP DI: A Minor Mystery
"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims." -- DI p. 67
Steve Ross
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W
From:Susan Wenger
Sent: 02/18/2002 12:27 PM PST
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP DI: A Minor Mystery
Post of the month - sorry I was away when it first came out, worthy of instant
reinforcement
From:Janet Cook
Sent: 02/16/2002 06:13 PM ZE10
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP:DI:Separated at birth?
Anyway, I'm not sure what to make of the overt Wogan-as-lesser-Villiers
aspect of DI, whether on balance it improves the book or whether the same
plot and juxtaposition could better have been handled more subtly.
From:Susan Wenger
Sent: 02/16/2002 04:28 AM PST
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP:DI:Separated at birth?
From:Mary S
Sent: 02/16/2002 11:51 AM EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Group Read:DI-Tell it to The Marines
I feed my horse on corn and beans,
Although it's quite beyond the means
Of a captain in the Army!"
http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/lookup.cgi?ti=CAPTJINK&tt=CAPTJINK
35° 58' 11" N
86° 48' 57" W
From:Marshall Rafferty
Sent: 02/17/2002 04:20 PM PST
Subject: [POB] GRP DI: A quote from Stephen
his lungs and lips alone I praise."
From:Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: 02/18/2002 02:23 AM GMT
Subject: Re: [POB] GRP DI: A quote from Stephen
247 harper DI
From: Steve Ross (skross@LSU.EDU)
Sent: Mon Feb 18 2002 - 15:58:36 EST
Subject: GRP DI: Dumb and Dumber (Longitude and noon observations)
To a knowing eye that harsh, laconic record [the ship's log], usually
concerned with nothing but figures and the occasional disaster, betrayed
something like ecstasy in its steady sequence of 'Clear weather, fresh
breezes', of splendid distances run, often as much as two hundred
nautical miles a day, and in the rapidly diminishing longitude. '42°5'N,
12°41'W-37°31'N,14°49'W-34°17'N, 15°3'W-32°17'N, 15°27'W.'
"Where would conversation be, if we were not allowed to exchange our
minds freely and to abuse our neighbors from time to time?"
-- FOW p. 147
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W
From: Bill Nyden (w.a.nyden@WORLDNET.ATT.NET)
Sent: Mon Feb 18 2002 - 16:40:08 EST
Subject: GRP DI: (Longitude and noon observations)
a Rose by another name at Home
37° 23' 28" N 122° 04' 09" W
From: Adam Quinan (adam.quinan@ROGERS.COM)
Sent: Mon Feb 18 2002 - 18:43:32 EST
Subject: GRP DI: (Longitude and noon observations)
Please note my new e-mail address adam.quinan@rogers.com
Commander Ted Walker R.N.
Somewhere around 43° 46' 21"N, 79° 22' 51"W
From: Martin (martin_sj_watts@LINEONE.NET)
Sent: Tue Feb 19 2002 - 00:18:58 EST
Subject: GRP DI: (Longitude and noon observations)
50° 44' 58" N
1° 58' 35" W
From: Don Seltzer (dseltzer@DRAPER.COM)
Sent: Mon Feb 18 2002 - 20:30:04 EST
Subject: GRP DI: (Longitude and noon observations)
From: Steve Ross (skross@LSU.EDU)
Sent: Tue Feb 19 2002 - 11:05:52 EST
Subject: GRP DI: (Longitude and noon observations)
"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims." -- DI p. 67
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W
From: Nick Coleman (njpc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU)
Sent: Mon Feb 18 2002 - 22:30:32 EST
Subject: GRP DI: (Longitude and noon observations)
Nick
From: JohnMckD@AOL.COM
Sent: Mon Feb 18 2002 - 17:47:51 EST
Subject: Longitude and noon observations
Evanston by the Illiwimichiana Sea -- where the latitude hardly ever varies
from noon to noon.
From: Dick Elliott (dick_elliott@CALDIVE.COM)
Sent: Mon Feb 18 2002 - 17:21:36 EST
Subject: Dumb and dumber, longitude and noon sights.
Cheers, and best regards,
From: Linnea (ronlin@BRINET.COM)
Date: Mon Feb 18 2002 - 21:50:11 EST
GP RD: DI: Jack and the Buttertub
Saturn as Time
Pictorial representations of Saturn that survived from antiquity show a
vigorous middle-aged man, wielding a sickle. It could have been an
agricultural implement or the Gaia's sickle. As Saturn gradually acquired
the connotation of the god of Time, in later representations Saturn is seen
as a worn-out old man,
often leaning against a scythe. The identification of Saturn with Time may
have been derived from the image of Kronos devouring his children (time
devours everything) or from the planet's sluggish motion along the
celestial vault. In any case, the identification had not been universal in
antiquity, and presently it mostly endures in astrological writings.
From: Steve Ross (skross@LSU.EDU)
Sent: Fri Feb 22 2002 - 11:14:19 EST
Subject: GP RD: DI: Narrative brilliance; Babbington's Cerberus (WAS Jack and the Buttertub)
splendid children of lovely-ankled Leda--Castor,the horse-tamer, and
faultless Polydeuces [=Pollux]. Leda joined in love with Zeus, the
dark-clouded son of Cronus, and she gave birth beneath the summit of the
great mountain, Taygetus, to these children, saviors of people on earth
and of swift-moving ships, when wintry winds rage over a savage sea.
Those on the ship go to the highest part of the stern and call on great
Zeus with promises of white lambs. The strong wind and swell of the sea
put the ship under water, but suddenly the two brothers appear, darting
on tawny wings through the air. At once they calm the blasts of the
harsh winds and quell the waves on the expanse of the whitecapped sea.
Those who have been freed from pain and toil rejoice [sound like anyone
we know, folks?], since they have seen these two fair signs of
deliverance from distress. Hail, Tyndaridae, riders of swift horses!
Yet I shall remember you and another song too."
a complacent pragmatical worldly fellow (HMSS p. 196) . . .
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W
From: Mary Arndt (mlaktb@HOTMAIL.COM)
Sent: Fri Feb 22 2002 - 11:35:45 EST
Re: GP RD: DI: Narrative brilliance; Babbington's Cerberus (WAS Jack and the Buttertub)
From: Susan Wenger
Sent: 02/19/2002 04:03 PM PST
Subject: [POB] GroupRead:DI:Reading Material
LOL
From:John Finneran
Sent: 02/20/2002 01:26 AM PST
Subject: [POB] GRP: DI: Five Desolations
Is lust in action; and till action, lust
Is perjured, murderous, bloody, full of blame,
Savage, extreme, rude, cruel, not to trust,
Enjoy'd no sooner but despised straight,
Past reason hunted, and no sooner had
Past reason hated, as a swallow'd bait
On purpose laid to make the taker mad;
Mad in pursuit and in possession so;
Had, having, and in quest to have, extreme
;
A bliss in proof, and proved, a very woe;
Before, a joy proposed; behind, a dream.
All this the world well knows; yet none knows well
To shun the heaven that leads men to this hell.
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