O'Pinions & O'Bservations O' O'Bscure O'Briania


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The Mauritius Command

From: Jerry Shurman
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 11:50 AM
Subject: Groupread:TMC:Aubrey in Wonderland

I'm excited enough about something in Chapter 1 that I can't make myself wait until January.

First some other comments:

Again, thanks to Susan Wenger for pointing out how the animal behaviors comment on -- or foreshadow -- the human story. On page 16, when "an uncommonly large black and white bird lifted from among the trees...the bird, now harried by pair of crows, crossed the valley and vanished over the hill that divided Ashgrove Cottage from the sea," this predicts Jack's flight at the end of the chapter. Later passages like "`How they do talk,' reflected Stephen: this was the first time he had ever seen the slightest possible evidence of a relationship between Sophie and her improbable mother...he watched Sophie and her mother, and their kinship became more apparent...an expression that a French colleague of his...had called `the English look', attributing it to frigidity..." makes clear who the crows are. And ditto for the cow refusing the bull on page 21 and Stephen's later "Jack, with his ardent temperament, must be strangely put out."

Stephen's innumeracy, a running joke in the canon, is present here when he cites the law of averages on page 31.

Jane Austen references abound through the chapter, this time mostly to _Emma_. Mapes and Ashgrove are reminiscent of Maple Grove, the seat of Augusta Elton's brother, Mr. Suckling. (POB wasn't the only one with a knack for names.) Mrs. Williams's gushing about the woods at Mapes on page 27 calls to mind Mrs. Elton talking about Maple Grove. On page 30, Stephen, in "Doctor Pissy" mode, tells Jack, `But I do beg you will not countenance that thoughtless way people have of flinging them [Jack's daughters] up into the air...it is a grievous error to fling them to the ceiling.' In _Emma_, Mr. Woodhouse says, "And then their uncle comes in, and tosses them [his nephews] to the ceiling in a very frightful way!" And sure enough, a ship called the Emma appears near the end of the book (p.327). Do any lissuns know if this is one of the real ships from the Mauritius campaign or an O'Brian invention?

On page 50, when Sophie "...was also sorry for her recent -- shrewishness was far too strong a word -- for now she ran straight on into praise of their visitor. Lady Clonfert was a most elegant, well-bred woman, with remarkably fine eyes..." the words echo Mis Bingley's "And for her eyes, which have sometimes been called so fine...they have a sharp, shrewish look" from _Pride and Prejudice_. And I think that a comment on page 36 about the chimney not drawing when the air is anything south of west echoes a line from _Persuasion_, though I haven't found it yet.

But the more I read Chapter 1 of TMC the more I kept hearing another voice there. It took me a long time to figure it out, but I think this isn't completely crazy.

Some passages from O'Brian:

1. Mrs. Williams to Stephen: "Not on the settle, Doctor Maturin, if you please. You will be more comfortable in Captain Aubrey's chair." (Page 25.)

2. "`A handsome clock it is too,' said Stephen. `A regulator, I believe. Could it not be set a-going?'

`Oh, no, sir,' said Mrs. Williams with a pitying look. `Was it to be set a-going, the works would instantly start to wear." (Page 26.)

3. "She told him loud and clear that they never had coffee except on birthdays...if he liked, she would butter his toast for him. She buttered a great deal of his coat too..." (Page 37.)

4. "They had pale, globular faces, and inthe middle of each face a surprisingly long and pointed nose called the turnip to an impartial observer's mind." (Page 29.)

5. "Bahi is largely inhabited by idiots." (Page 20.)

6. "...Sophie's head emerged. Her distracted look immediately changed to open delight, the sweetest smile...Stephen plucked off his hat, bowed and kissed his hand, though indeed he could perfectly well have reached hers from where he stood." (Page 24.) Later Jack says, of Sophie, "I might as well talk to the cathead." (Page 34.)

7. Bessie the cook, "A character, a character, that's all I want." (Page 23.)

Compare to some passages from a well known book:

1. "`No room! No room!' they cried out when they saw Alice coming. `There's _plenty_ of room!' said Alice indignantly, and she sat down in a large arm-chair at one end of the table.

2. "`What a funny watch!' she remarked. `It tells the day of the month and doesn't tell what o'clock it is!'"

3. "`I told you butter wouldn't suit the works!' he added, looking angrily at the March Hare.

`It was the _best_ butter,' the March Hare meekly replied.

`Yes, but some bread-crumbs must have got in as well,' the Hatter grumbled: `you shouldn't have put it in with the bread-knife.'"

(And note that the Mad Tea-Party takes place on Alice's birthday.)

4. "The baby grunted again, and Alice looked very anxiously into its face to see what was the matter with it. There could be no doubt that it had a _very_ turn-up nose, ..."

5. "`Oh, you ca'n't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here.'"

6. "She was looking about her for some way of escape, and wondering whether she could get away without being seen, when she noticed a curious appearance in the air: it puzzled her very much at first, but after watching it a minute or two she made it out to be a grin, and she said to herself, `It's the Cheshire-Cat: now I shall have somebody to talk to.` ...In another minute the whole head appeared...The Cat seemed to think that there was enough of it now in sight, and no more of it appeared...

`Who _are_ you talking to?' said the King, coming up to Alice and looking at the Cat's head with great curiosity.

`It's a friend of mine--a Cheshire-Cat,' said Alice: "allow me to introduce it.'

`I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'"

7. "They told me you had been to her,
And mentioned me to him;
She gave me a good character,
But said I could not swim."

Mrs. Williams and cook are very like the Queen and the Duchess, and some of the scenes at Ashgrove cottage are very similar to the "Pig and Pepper" chapter of Alice, a chapter perhaps in turn named with a wink to "Pride and Prejudice."

One of Lewis Carroll's alter ego's in _Alice_ is the Dodo (Dodgson stammered, pronouncing his own name "Do-dodgson"), native to Mauritius, for all love! (Don't we hear the story of its extinction from Stephen later in TMC?) Perhaps when POB was researching this he somehow learned of the dodo in the Oxford University museum, which [says Martin Gardner in _The Annotated Alice_] Carroll often visited with the Liddell children?

So, I believe that O'Brian wrote Chapter 1 of TMC partly with a nod and a wink to _Alice_. Have I sold anyone else on the idea? (Or, is this a tired old idea in the Gunroom from before I got here?)

-Jerry


From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC: Aubrey in Wonderland

Jerry Shurman, in his delightful set of comments on literary echoes in the canon, sets a "best butter" comment in Wonderland.

We can look ahead to the last book, BAM, and find "proof" if we need it, that Jerry has indeed spotted an interesting passage.

There's a longish bit where the navigator of an American ship visits Surprise, bringing his faulty chronometer with him. (Remember that the March Hare cdn't fix the watch, even though he used the "best butter.")

Maturin, however, manages to fix the American's chronometer.

When the Americans go back to their ship, they leave a gift: a decanter of Dutch schnapps.

Speaking of their generosity, Jack says: They have won again...How I hope we gave them something, at least."

I did have half a carboy of tincture of hogweed conveyed into their boat, says Maturin in a doubtful voice. It was the best hogweed, he added with even less certainty. (The March Hare's reply was made "meekly.")

Q.E.D.

Charlezzzz


From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TMC:Aubrey in Wonderland

In a message dated 12/9/01 2:51:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@REED.EDU writes:

a ship called the Emma appears near the end of the book (p.327). Do any lissuns know if this is one of the real ships from the Mauritius campaign or an O'Brian invention?

Emma appears to have been quite genuine. On page 393 of C. Northcote Parkinson's "War In the Eastern Seas", in the discussion of the Mauritius campaign is the statement that Commodore Rowley, the historical figure whose place Jack Aubrey takes in the POB novel, "was chased off by the Venus and the Manche and returned to St. Paul's, quickly sending off the transport Emma to cruise off Rodriguez and warn all friendly shipping of what the position was." David Lyon's "The Sailing Navy List: All the Ships of the Royal Navy - Built, Purchased and Captured - 1688-1860" under the heading of "Hired Ships" lists the Emma as from 1809-1811 being an "Armed ship", although there is a note that the name is from unofficial sources, a common note among these hired ships.

Bruce Trinque
41°37'53"N 72°22'51"W


From: Jerry Shurman
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 12:52 PM
Subject: Groupread:TMC:Aubrey in Wonderland -- a little more

I forgot to say that Stephen's peripatetic hatful of mushrooms has an offstage history very like the stolen tarts in _Alice_.

And I wonder if Jack Aubrey having a name so similar to "Jane Austen" is just coincidence.

-Jerry, wondering when this sort of speculation crosses the line to "crackpot"


From: Susan Wenger
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TMC:Aubrey in Wonderland -- a little more

Jerry Shurman wrote:

wondering when this sort of speculation crosses the line to "crackpot"

It crosses the line when I disagree with it : }

It hasn't crossed the line.

=====
To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please see
http://www.ericahouse.com/browsebuy/fiction/wenger/index.html OR http://www.sea-room.com


From: Jerry Shurman
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 9:43 AM
Subject: Groupread:TMC:More Lewis Carroll

I'm on digest now and not reading through them closely, so apologies if this duplicates what someone else has already noticed.

The _Alice_ references die down after Chapter 1 of TMC, but there's one notable exception. Around page 194 in my edition, during a storm, Stephen falls down several ladders and into a supply of treacle, echoing Alice's entry into Wonderland and the Dormouse's story about the three sisters who lived at the bottom of a treacle well. The three sisters drew all sorts of things that begin with "M," such as much of a muchness, a phrase that O'Brian uses in TMC.

But most tellingly, soon after Stephen's misadventure with the treacle he confers with his assistent, one Mr. Carol. How delightful to find the Rev. Dodgson himself making a cameo in the canon!

-Jerry


From: Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 5:36 PM
Subject: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler

Hello can anyone throw any light on this passage?--page 67 in my version of .Mauritius Command. to do with crossing the equator

.for when they reduced sail to let Neptune come aboard, accompanied by an outrageously lewd Amphritrite and Badger-Bag, he(Jack) found no less than 123 souls who had been made free of the equator by being lathered with rancid grease(tar etc -i understand)-------and shaved with a piece of barrel-hoop before being ducked.?

Alec O F
'It's the heaviest hurley that ever yet was cut from the deadly upas-tree.'


From: William Nyden
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler

A long time tradition of initiating those who had not crossed the line. It still goes on.

--
Bill Nyden
a Rose by another name
37° 25' 15" N 122° 04' 57" W
======================================================
William Nyden | CAD Systems Engineer
Space Systems/Loral | nyden@ssd.loral.com
3825 Fabian Way, Z-02 | ph (650) 852-4333
Palo Alto, CA 94303 USA | fax (650) 852-5207

"Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction after all, has to make sense."
- Mark Twain

http://www.maturin.org/
http://www.Calif-Sport-Divers.org/
http://www.HMSSurprise.org/


From: Edmund Burton
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler

When a ship crosses the equator, the dread King Neptune comes aboard, accompanied by his court, and those who have not previously made the crossing, known as pollywogs, undergo a terrible ordeal of initiation, by which they are reborn as shellbacks


From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler

This is a naval tradition- Initiation for anyone crossing the equator for the first time.

Blatherin' John B


From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler

Pollywogs and shellbacks- them war the terms i war alookin' fer !

Blatherin' John B


From: Kyle Lerfald
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler

And don't we know it, too! I still carry my shellback card,now years since that fateful day. There's nothing like awaking at dawn, crawling on your hands & knees through garbage and old food,being urged on by satan-posessed shipmates with lengths of doubled fire-hose up and down (KER-WHACK!) the length of the ship (CVN-65, USS Enterprise is 1,100 #$%^&ing feet long!)then a bracing jog for a lap or two, then being, er, well, I shall have the nightmare again if I go on, then a dunk in a tank of water (incidentally, still one of the best photos ever taken of yours truly), and a hosedown by the ship's fire fighting equippment and finally, at sunset, the mother of all field days to clean the ship up to fighting conditioning again...and as a special bonus for us, we had a general quarters alert 2 hours after I'd turned in to my rack. So 4 hours after that, onto watch.

Now, why do I remember that day so clearly?

Kyle


From: Peter Mackay
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler

123 souls who had been made free of the equator by being lathered with rancid grease(tar etc -i understand)-------and shaved with a piece of barrel-hoop before being ducked.?

It refers to forced immersion. It is NOT a typo, and I am surprised that your mind works that way. For shame!
--

Cheers, Peter


From: Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 1:54 AM
Subject: Re: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler

I fid not think it was a typo -Dorsooth

Alec O F
'It's the heaviest hurley that ever yet was cut from the deadly upas-tree.'


From: Ray McPherson (raymcp999@YAHOO.COM)
Date: Mon Dec 17 2001 - 23:38:29 EST
Subject: SPOILER! [POB] The Yellow Admiral

Marshall Rafferty wrote:

The thing that most struck me in the last several books was the gradual disappearance of the crew.

I think that this is, in part, because Jack has risen higher in command and as a result has less contact with the lower orders.

Ray Mcp


From: Peter Mackay (peter.mackay@BIGPOND.COM)
Date: Mon Dec 17 2001 - 23:52:16 EST
Subject: SPOILER! [POB] The Yellow Admiral

He's *always* been the captain. Very early on he is in command of exactly the same ship as which he ends the series. And in TMC, an early novel, he is a very senior officer indeed.


From: MacKenna Charleson
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 00:07:46 EST
Subject: Re: SPOILERS TYA and TMC

But there is a difference in connection with a newly-risen captain. Even he thinks of it in the first book, interpreting looks and silences and knowing what they meant. And in TMC, there are several places where he seems to recognize the duality and the temporary quality of his position -- and several instances where he finds himself apart from an understanding of those in his command (particularly of his captains -- ref. Stephen's "do not blame the bull because the frog has burst", my paraphrase), even almost deliberately blind in a couple of instances to things he would have been more concerned about earlier on -- I'm thinking particularly of Corbett. Jack's are now the larger issues, where once he would have prioritized a happy ship and been more worried about rolling shot and whistling in the dark.

As the books progress, he mentions feeling the distance and isolation more in various references. And it seems to me Ray's onto something. As Jack's is further away and higher in command, so we too have the stuff of neurotic gentlemen also-rans, plucking themselves to death for their own sense of failure. When we see the motley crew below-decks, it is often through Stephen's eyes, or just over his shoulder.

Which it *was* a hairbrush,

=MacKenna


From: "P. Richman"
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:45:44 +0000
Subject: GroupRead: TMC: question and observation

Can't wait another day, I'll be away tomorrow when TMC opens.

I have a question niggling at me from The Mauritius Command and an observation.

On page 59, what Jack knew, and what Stephen did not, was that those forty-seven minutes had made all the difference betweeen salvage and no salvage. The Intrepid Fox had been taken at forty-six minutes past ten on Tuesday, and if he had accepted the surrender of the French prize-master one moment before twenty-four hours had passed, by sea-law the guineaman would not have been salvage at all.

How did Jack know that? He was at sea and he came upon some enemies and prizes. The allies aboard wouldn't have been in a position to signal him, and the French wouldn't have told him the time of capture. He wasn't there, so how did he know to stall for 46 minutes?

In return, here's something I spotted.

page 34, Stephen and Jack are talking about Sophie, and Stephen says "Allow me to pour you another glass of this port. It is an innocent wine, neither sophisticated nor muddy, which is rare in these parts."

He's certainly speaking of Sophie when he describes this wine.


From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 11:17:00 -0500
Subject: GroupRead: TMC: question and observation

How did Jack know that? He was at sea and he came upon some enemies and prizes. The allies aboard wouldn't have been in a position to signal him,

Would not the french ship's log have given the time?

Barney Simon
NYC


From: Susan Wenger
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 12:34:40 -0800
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC: question and observation

As I understand P's question, Jack delayed taking the ship for exactly 47 minutes. He wouldn't have had the French ship's log until after it was taken, so how did he know how long he had to stall?

- Susan
=====
To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please see http://www.ericahouse.com/browsebuy/fiction/wenger/index.html OR
http://www.sea-room.com


From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 15:41:32 EST
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC: question and observation

I have not looked again, but it seems to me that he had the crew from the prize before he completed his attack on the Frenchman. They would have told him when they got captured. so he held off accepting the surrender.

Blatherin' John B


From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:56:00 -0500
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC: question and observation

I think he RE-took the french ship's PRIZE not the french ship after the appropriate minutes.

Barney


From: Samuel Bostock
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:43:25 -0000
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC: question and observation

I have not looked again, but it seems to me that he had the crew from the prize before he completed his attack on the Frenchman. They would have told him when they got captured. so he held off accepting the surrender.

Correct, sir, but the other way around. Aubrey captured the Hebe first when she ran aground, and must have found out from her crew what time they had captured the snow, Intrepid Fox, which was then secured after 47 minutes of 'backing and filling' to ensure that she was regarded as salvage.

Sam


From: Don Seltzer
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 14:44:52 -0500
Subject: GRP: TMC: Wine and Women, was question and observation

P. Richman wrote: page 34, Stephen and Jack are talking about Sophie, and Stephen says "Allow me to pour you another glass of this port. It is an innocent wine, neither sophisticated nor muddy, which is rare in these parts."

He's certainly speaking of Sophie when he describes this wine.

What a great observation! Now we have another set of metaphors to watch out for when rereading.

Here's another possibility from FOW. The early Diana of PC and HMSS was "no good, no good at all" - J. Aubrey. After an absence of several books, POB decided to bring her back, now rehabilitated. At the initial dinner with Stephen, Diana, and Johnson, it seems that the wine might be bad. Stephen takes a sip and declares,

"I am no great judge of wine, but I have heard that very occasionally the mouthful just round the cork may have an ill taste, while the rest of the bottle is excellent. Perhaps that is the case here".

A couple of random observations:
In HMSS, particular note is made by Jack and Stephen of the 17th of the month, when Diana and Canning were expected to arrive in Bombay. And similarly in FOW, Diana and her new paramour Johnson make a similar reappearance in the canon, arriving in Boston on the 17th of May. Perhaps a day of significance in POB's own life?

And [Warning, THD spoiler below]

Madeira was the setting at the end of HMSS when Stephen received the letter from Diana, informing him that she had left him, to run off to America with Johnstone/Johnson. And it was also in Madeira that Stephen again received a heartbreaking letter telling him that Diana had "left him", this time permanently. I wonder if POB had any personal reasons to associate Madeira with such unhappiness (Wantage certainly did).

Don Seltzer


From: John Finneran
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 23:32:48 -0800
Subject: Re: GRP: TMC: Wine and Women, was question and observation

Don Seltzer wrote:

A couple of random observations: In HMSS, particular note is made by Jack and Stephen of the 17th of the month, when Diana and Canning were expected to arrive in Bombay. And similarly in FOW, Diana and her new paramour Johnson make a similar reappearance in the canon, arriving in Boston on the 17th of May. Perhaps a day of significance in POB's own life?

The 17th that comes immediately to mind is March 17th (St. Patrick's Day), though I don't know that that has much bearing here.

On the very astute observations about PO'B's wine metaphors: we shouldn't forget his short story "The Chian Wine", in which the whole story is an extended wine metaphor, so this is certainly a technique PO'B sometimes uses.

John Finneran


From: Peter Mackay
Subject: Re: GroupRead:TMC:Opening (and sun dry observations on the weather)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 16:35:45 +1100

Well, it's been 200000002 for a day already and I'd just like to say that the opening of TMC contains the longest sustained humorous piece in the entire canon, in my humble opinion. Oh, but it had me in stitches when I first heard it. Lucky Jack Aubrey, the Scourge of the Seven Seas, brought to a stand by caterpillars and shrews!

Which I have to say that the holiday on the Gold Coast was wonderful, though too short by half and too hot by far. It's a hot, windy day today here in Canberra, and I'm dreading the bushfire report in half an hour. On a day like today a fire can spring up and whip from treetop to treetop at a frigate's speed.

But here in suburban Campbell we're overhauling the manchester after the summer sales and the sheets have dried almost as soon as we put them on the line. Ripped up the carpet in the master bedroom for good measure to expose the glorious old golden floorboards.

Cheers, Peter


From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:14:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC One of my favorite concepts in the book

p.102 "Decency required Jack to refresh the flag-lieutenant; decency required the flag-lieutenant to see his share out with in ten minutes,..."

I love that sentiment and understanding of custom.

Barney Simon
NYC


From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:22:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage

p 52 JA's letter states ..." at dawn on the 17th instant, the Dry Savages..." how does the use of the work 'instant' signify? It seems rather inprecise.

p.60 JA signals "happy returns." I assume this is related to the same as when you buy a train ticket there and back, you buy a "return ticket?"

p 187 in Clonfert's cabin, we have a couple of "pier-glasses" which I expect to be mirrors, but then I might also expect them to be "peer-glasses." I can think of piers for boats, piers for bridges, is there something I am missing?

from p. 215 on we have the use of the term 'howitzer' used for cannons. I always assumed that Howitzer was a term like "Colt" or "Winchester" what is its history?

Barney Simon
NYC


From: MacKenna Charleson
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 19:14:41 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage (Pier glasses)

Pier-glasses are large, high mirrors designed usually to be placed between windows. In great houses of the era, they were designed to be especially pretty by candlelight, and to present the ladies in fine aspect (they were sometimes slightly tinted to beautify the candlelit reflection). They were expensive at the time and often beautifully-made.

=MacKenna


From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:27:57 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage(pier glass)

From www. google.com

The large pier glass was created by the casting method, and not from blown cylinder. Furnace technology advanced quickly in the industrial revolution.

Blatherin' John B


From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:44:20 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage (Pier glasses)

MacKennaC@AOL.COM writes:

They were expensive at the time and often beautifully-made.

Still are, both.

Blatherin' John B


From: Gerry Strey
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 08:14:38 -0600
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage(pier glass)

I think of a "pier glass" as a tall, narrow mirror, ornately framed. In this instance another indication of Clonfert's vanity.

Gerry Strey
Madison. Wisconsin


From: losmp
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 09:40:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage(pier glass)

Vanity. Or lack of a sense of personal identity. Needing reflected identity to feel whole.

Lois, thinking of Cooley's discussions of the sense of self, and mirroring


From: MacKenna Charleson
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 09:58:32 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage(pier glass)

Certainly self-absorption!

-=MacKenna


From: Larry & Wanda Finch
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 19:37:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage

Barney Simon wrote:

p 52 JA's letter states ..." at dawn on the 17th instant, the Dry Savages..." how does the use of the work 'instant' signify? It seems rather inprecise.

Day of the month.

p.60 JA signals "happy returns." I assume this is related to the same as when you buy a train ticket there and back, you buy a "return ticket?"

Not sure. Trains hadn't been invented yet.

from p. 215 on we have the use of the term 'howitzer' used for cannons. I always assumed that Howitzer was a term like "Colt" or "Winchester" what is its history?

My dictionary says: From Dutch houwitser, ultimately from Czech houfnice ballista, 1695. Encyclopedia Britannica says it is a crew-served weapon with hollow, powder-filled projectiles.

Larry


From: Peter Mackay
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:03:58 +1100
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage

The Happy Return by CS Forester, brought tears to my eyes.

As I understand it, when one wishes "many happy returns", it is not a train voyage one conjures up, but a return to that day in a year's time, and many more after.


From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:40:15 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage(howitzer)

from p. 215 on we have the use of the term 'howitzer' used for cannons. I always assumed that Howitzer was a term like "Colt" or "Winchester" what is its history?

It is defined as a short barrelled cannon for firing in a high trajectory , capable of hitting 'out of line-of -sight' targets. Apparently derived from germanic term for catapult.

Blatherin' John B


From: Mary S
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 22:32:25 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage

Barney Simon wrote:

p 52 JA's letter states ..." at dawn on the 17th instant, the Dry Savages..." how does the use of the work 'instant' signify? It seems rather inprecise.

Larry Finch answered:

Day of the month.

That is, the current month. E.g. Wednesday of this week could be referred to as "The 3rd instant" until February, after which it would be the "3rd Jan.".

I do not pretend to teach you to sail your sloop or poop or whatever you call the damned machine...[HMSS 76]

Mary S
35° 58' 11" N
86° 48' 57" W


From: Peter Mackay
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:33:28 +1100
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage

3rd ult?


From: Mary S
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 14:46:09 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage

3rd ult?

Ooh yes, I'd forgotten that charming piece of period. Thanks!


From: Kerry webb
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:13:33 -0800
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage

I believe that in February, it would be called "the 3rd ult." (for ultimo) and that in December it would have been called "the 3rd prox." (proximo).

I have the honour to be
your most obedient savant

Kerry


From: Roger Marsh
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 08:30:02 +0100
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage(howitzer)

As for "instant," isn't it Latin legalse for "this month"? Can some lawyer Lissun help here?

No lawyer I, and I don't think it needs one, but "inst." and "instant" certainly mean "this month" (the current one), as "ult." does "last month"; a now-archaic usage much employed by previous generatons in business correspondence.

A howitzer fired shells in a high arcing trajectory, like a mortar, and was almost exclusively for land-based, Army use; its dictionary-given derivation has been dealt with here, though I have always wondered whether there was not originally some Polish or East Prussian gentleman by the name of Howitz or Howicz who invented it.

Regards,

Roger Marsh


From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:47:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC Gen Abercrombie's written remarks


Okay, I might be a little off in my reading but, on p346, at the bottom, it starts:
"...General Abercrombie was struggling to his feet, with a sheaf of notes in his hand." then he reads and then he fumbles the pages, then we are told that "It took some time to get the General back to his eulogy of Abercrombie and all present,..."

While I understand the General breaking his arm patting himself on the back and taking credit for others' work, this wording (using his name the second time) struck me as odd.

Barney Simon
NYC


From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:31:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC The character of Clonfert

Is Clonfert based upon anyone historically specific?

Barney Simon
NYC


From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:11:38 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC The character of Clonfert

Well, yes and no. The role that Clonfert plays during the campaign to conquer Mauritius is closely modeled that of Nesbit Willoughby, who in reality commanded the vessels assigned in O'Brian's novel to Lord Clonfert and who in actuality undertook the combat operations attributed in TMC to Clonfert. However, the personality of Clonfert would appear to be O'Brian's own invention, with any particular relation to that of Willoughby. (O'Brian did something similar, of course, in "Master and Commander" where Jack Aubrey's service aboard the Sophie is virtually an exact copy of that of Lord Cochrane aboard the Speedy, yet Jack Aubrey is nonetheless a wholly originally character in terms of his background and personality.)

I have published on the Internet an article about the actual Mauritius Campaign which describes the actual Royal Navy officers involved and even contains a portrait of Willoughby. It can be found at

http://members.aol.com/batrinque/personal2/index.htm

Bruce Trinque
41°37'53"N
72°22'51"W


From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 21:19:49 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC The character of Clonfert

Excellent article- and it contains most of the elements of the POB novelization.

Blatherin' John B


From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 22:39:51 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC The character of Clonfert

It was POB's novel, of course, which got me interested in the subject. The best published source for the campaign is the long out-of-print "War In the Eastern Seas" by C. Northcote Parkinson, although there is useful information in James' history of the Royal Navy as well.

Bruce Trinque
41°37'53"N
72°22'51"W


From: info
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 13:39:26 -0000
Subject: Groupread: TMC The character of Clonfert

Perhaps P o'B used the more negative aspects of Lord Cochranes personality for Clonfert.
He certainly used the more positive side of him as a model for Jack, and indeed most of M&C is drawn from Cochrane's exploits in the "Speedy". He refers to Cochrane several times in the books with some disdain for the "showy" side of his character.

Regards,
Jack Aubrey Meyn.


From: Roger Marsh
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:55:44 +0100
Subject: Re: Groupread TMC - The Character of Clonfert (and Aubrey and Cochrane)

I personally do not think that Aubrey and Thomas, Lord Cochrane, are particuarly similar in very many respects, neither physically nor in personality.

To be sure, they share some qualities, skills and attitudes, to wit: courage, seamanship, honour, concern for their men in the Nelsonian mould, were both more successful afloat than ashore and Aubrey has "adopted" many of the real Cochrane's experiences, both his trials and his tribulations, but much of that could be said of quite a few commanders from the age of sail and otherwise there are great differences (Hornblower nicked some of his exploits too, though not much of his basic character though that has been claimed as well, and Maryatt actually served as midshipman under him in "Imperieuse").

I feel that Clonert fits even less of the Cochrane mould, even his less desirable traits. See what you all think - read a good biography of Cochrane, but PLEASE, NOT the latest one by Robert Harvey, definitely the one to avoid, written by a man who quite evidently knows so little about the 18thC ships, navies and their organisation, shiphandling, gunnery, etc. about which he purports to inform us that it is quite embarrassing to read.

Cochrane was justly named by Napoleon "Le Loup des Mers".

Regards,

Roger Marsh


From: Edmund Burton
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:16:25 -0600
Subject: Re: Groupread TMC - The Character of Clonfert (and Aubrey and Cochrane)

read a good biography of Cochrane, but PLEASE, NOT the latest one by Robert Harvey, Roger Marsh

Which ones are good? I'm only going to read one, which one should it be?

EB


From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:41:09 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread TMC - The Character of Clonfert (and Aubrey and Cochrane)

I would recommend first Ian Grimble's "The Sea Wolf", followed by Donald Thomas's "Cochrane: Britannia's Last Sea-King". Christopher Lloyd's "Lord Cochrane: Seaman, Radical, Liberator" is worth reading, but not as detailed as the others. Cochrane's autobiography ("The Autobiography of a Seaman") is not exactly unbiased -- and is awfully heavy going when he discusses the Stock Exchange trial.

Bruce Trinque
41°37'53"N
72°22'51"W


From: Roger Marsh (frigates@MARLINTER.FSNET.CO.UK)
Date: Thu Jan 03 2002 - 03:39:30 EST
Cochrane the Movie, Biography &c. (was The Character of Clonfert &c.)

Recommended biographies of this greatest of all the frigate captains are:

"Thomas Cochrane, Britannia's Last Sea King" (Donald Thomas - also reprinted under the title "Cochrane - Britannia's Sea Wolf")
"The Sea Wolf" (Ian Grimble)
"Lord Cochrane" (Christopher Lloyd)
"Cochrane" (Warren Tute)

Also, though heavy going in parts:

"Autobiography of a Seaman" - his own autobiography, but only the first half of his extraordinary career, up to his trial and imprisonment.

The one to avoid, as I said before, is the more recently-published "Cochrane: The Life and Exploits of a Fighting Captain" by Robert Harvey, full of "howlers" and inaccuracies (e.g., and this just one example amongst all-too-many, the author he tells us that the 6th Rate frigate "Hind" was a 28-gun 9-pdr. armed 2-masted schooner, and even then compounds this most basic error by going in detail into how a schooner was rigged and the comparative advantages of fore-and-aft vs. square rig).

Of these I prefer Thomas, but not one of them contains all the elements of his life, too incredible to write as fiction; even fiction writers can take only one or two of his exploits at a time to avoid the accusation of gross exaggeration - and many have; you will find actions which O'Brian's Aubrey and Forester's Hornblower "fought", as well as those in Captain Marryatt's fiction; Maryatt had the stories at first hand, having served as midshipman under him in "Impérieuse". Lady Cochrane, née Kitty Barnes, was also a quite formidable person, as well as beautiful.

Cochrane's whole story contains all the elements needed for a great film or TV series, if properly handled - and the story is for free, no royalties! Anyone interested, O beautiful people of Hollywood? Or Pinewood, or New Zealand? (I suppose it would end up having Hollywood money in it anyway). I give you, "Cochrane – Wolf of the Seas" – raise your glasses, please, Sirs and Ma’ams – no, no, you may stay seated, if we may sit for His Majesty, then we may for Lord Cochrane too.

Regards,

Roger Marsh


From: Don Seltzer
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:44:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Cochrane the Movie, Biography &c.

One fault that I found among several of the above books is that they relied too heavily upon Cochrane's own autobiography, often accepting without question his version of events. "Autobiography of a Seaman" was written half a century after the period it describes. To some extent, it was an effort by Cochrane to restore his public image, now that most of his enemies were dead, and unable to contradict his book. Not surprisingly, his account is less than candid, leaving out some of the less flattering details. Later biographers could have done a better job of researching other sources, and challenging Cochrane's version.

Cochrane wrote very little about his family, and none of his biographers as far as I know covered that subject as well as they might. There are only the briefest mentions of uncle Sir Alexander Cochrane and his numerous naval cousins. There is, however, a book written by a member of the Cochrane clan, titled "The Fighting Cochranes". It traces the family tree through all of the Cochranes who served in the military. I was surprised to learn of the extensive role that Alexander Cochrane played as the patriarch of the naval Cochranes, promoting the careers of a "cousinhood" of six sons and nephews, including "our" Thomas Cochrane.

Don Seltzer


From: Jean A
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 21:30:24 EST
Subject: Groupread: TMC: Clonfert

Clonfert is in Galway, 13 miles southeast of Ballinasloe, which, if I remember, Stephen Maturin mentions a couple of times in the canon. To quote my Bord Failte guide (Irish Tourist board), the church there was founded by St. Brendan the Navigator ( author of the famous Navigatio) in 563.
"The doorway of the present church is an outstanding example of Hiberno-Romanesque decoration, featuring an amazing variety of motifs, foliage, animal heads and human eads."

Jean A.


From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:12:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC About the word 'cello

POB always uses the word for the instrument that SM plays as the " 'cello." What was the full word and when was it abbreviated officially?

Barney Simon
NYC


From: Robert Saldeen
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 18:16:20 -0600
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC About the word 'cello

Violincello.

not sure when it was abbreviated.

Something like the instrument called a "piano" -- really a "pianoforte."

(as I understand it, anyway)...

bs


From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:18:17 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC About the word 'cello

Cello is short for violoncello. My copy of the Oxford English Dictionary indicates its first use in English as dating from 1881. I don't know whether its use on the Continent may have preceded its introduction into written English, and I have seen the OED proven wrong from time to time.

Bruce Trinque
41°37'53"N
72°22'51"W


From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 21:54:15 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC about the word cello

Bruce says:
"Cello is short for violoncello. My copy of the Oxford English Dictionary indicates its first use in English as dating from 1881."

But that ain't all. The present cello has a "spike" on its lower end, wch lets the player keep it rested on the floor (and perhaps wd ruin your parquet if you invited a cellist for dinner.)

But what wd have Maturin played? The viola da gamba is (I think) a sort of cello wch is held off the floor between the legs. Was it the form of cello used in those days? Was it a cello at all? Was it what Maturin might have played?

I dunno, but I know there are lissuns who do know. About four years ago, Steve Zimmerman, whose sister was giving a concert in Doylestown (!) on that very instrument, and a group of other Lissuns [the guilty know who they are, and some are active here and now] gathered at my house before that concert for a Lissunmoot of no mean proportions.

And there was one huge coincidence. I was wallowing in my sorrow that the homebrew India Pale Ale wch I was creating in my cellar wd not be ready in time. Up comes Zimmerman with the news that he was not only brother to a sister who played the viola da gamba...but he created his own India Pale Ale, and he brought a huge case of it with him.

And so we had a glorious Lissunmoot.

Charlezzzz, ready for another case of the stuff


From: Jerry Shurman
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 19:21:09 -0800
Subject: Re: GUNROOM Digest - 1 Jan 2002 - Special issue (#2002-3)

I'm on digest, so these questions may have been answered already, but just in case: "'cello" is short for "violoncello" (not "violincello").

The instruments of the violin family have their sizes described by the Italian suffixes of their name: "ino" itself means "small," a bass is a "violone," or "big violin." "Elo" or "ello" is an Italian diminutive and "c" a linking consonant, as in vermicelli spaghetti, and thus "violoncello" literally means "small big violin." ("Violoncino" was another early variant.)

As for "instant," isn't it Latin legalse for "this month"? Can some lawyer Lissun help here?

Jerry, immobile alone for four weeks after knee surgery and going steadily buggier


From: Jerry Shurman
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 19:39:56 -0800
Subject: Re: GUNROOM Digest - 1 Jan 2002 - Special issue (#2002-4)

The 'cello is not a descendent of the viola da gamba, the two instruments coming from different families, the violins and the viols. But Stephen's 'cello may indeed have lacked an endpin.

Viols descend from lutes. "Viola da gamba" is an Italianization of "Vihuela de kabus" or "vihuela de ganbus," with the additional happy circumstance of "gamba" meaning leg, as in That viola da gamba player sure has nice gams.

In these reenactment-fetish times, viols are being revived.

Jerry


From: Rowen 84
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 22:46:57 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC about the word cello

Charlezzzz@AOL.COM writes:

But that ain't all. The present cello has a "spike" on its lower end, wch lets the player keep it rested on the floor (and perhaps wd ruin your parquet if you invited a cellist for dinner.)

But what wd have Maturin played? The viola da gamba is (I think) a sort of cello wch is held off the floor between the legs. Was it the form of cello used in those days? Was it a cello at all? Was it what Maturin might have played?

Charlezzzz, I'm not an expert, and could be wrong about some of the following, but the viola da gamba is quite a different instrument, a member of the viol family rather than the violin family, and I feel sure that O'Brian intends that Stephen is playing a violincello. For one thing, I suspect it was an oblique nod to the _Catalan_ cellist, Pablo Cassals.

The shape of the viola da gamba (and of all the viols) is somewhat different; the fingerboard is fretted (like a guitar) where violin-family members (violin, viola, cello, double-bass) have smooth fingerboards; and most importantly they have six strings tuned mainly in fourths, (which makes chord playing easier) where the violincello has only four strings, tuned mainly in fifths. This means that the fingering is different between the gamba and the violin whereas the fingering is the same between a violin and a cello. I've been told that the viol instruments are easier to play, but also don't allow as much fancy technique as the modern violin/viola/cello.

All members of the viol family, even the higher pitched smaller treble, tenor and alto instruments, were held downward to be played - similar to the way a violincello is played rather than the way a violin is played. The bow is curved differently (shaped like a D instead of like a K, where the left hand stroke is the hair and the right hand stroke is the wood) and held differently (more like the way a German double-bass bow is held, I think, rather than the way a cello or French double-bass bow is held. In other words, to a casual observer they look a lot alike, (like Stephen thinking all vessels are 'ships' rather than brigs, polacres, etc.etc.) and sound similar, but are actually very different.

I think by 1800 the cello was the much more common instrument - I'm not sure that the viola da gamba was in common use much past the middle of the 18th century, or "Old Bach", although it has survived as a 'specialty' instrument for period music today.

Rowen


From: Rowen 84
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 22:57:42 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC about the word cello-Correction

violincello

Oops - as Jerry pointed out, it is spelled with an 'o': violoncello.

Rowen


From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 23:31:15 EST
Subject: Cellos and stuff

Rowen says:
"viola da gamba is quite a different instrument, a member of the viol family rather than the violin family"

My ignorance is vast, but I am not humbled. Am I not a member of the Gunroom, wch is the repository of all knowledge? Thankee, Rowen, because now I know more than I used to know, more than I will remember, indeed.

A glass of India Pale Ale with you

Charlezzzz


From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 22:57:35 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC about the word cello

Charlezzzz@AOL.COM writes:

But what wd have Maturin played? The viola da gamba is (I think) a sort of cello wch is held off the floor between the legs

I don't know why these notes dredge up humorous images- but this statement immediately brought to mind an old John Astin movie, where he is a notorious gunman in love with a Boston socialite. He goes to visit her during a chamber music concert, walks up to the cello player, pulls his peacemaker and tells the man to "put that fiddle up under yer chin like a regular man. You ain't one o' them "funny fellers, is yer ?"

Blatherin' John B


From: Ruth A Abrams
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:42:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC about the word cello

Adding my two cents to the cello and viola de gamba discussion:

One reason some wish to revive the viola de gamba is that some of the ways it differs structurally from the cello are better for the musician. A friend of mine was a cellist and has become a--what? a violist? no. anyway he's found that the structure of the older instrument doesn't aggravate his repetitive stress injury in the way the cello did, so he can make music again.

Did you ever wonder how Stephen regained the ability to play after his fingers were damaged by torture? Made me think of Jango Reinhart, the famous jazz guitarist, who lost fingers and played anyway.

ruth A.


From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:33:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC Did it actually happen?

I've been reading JA's speak so long... on p.324, did he actually get two correct?

"we must make hay while the sun shone" and "we must strike while the iron is hot"

Barney Simon
NYC
too confused to know what the right cliches are most of the time


From: MacKenna Charleson
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 19:25:46 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC Did it actually happen?

"we must make hay while the sun shone"

Well, if that's verbatim, the grammar leaves something to be desired, as verb agreement is all over the place -- but in that era, with Jack, the improper may reek of period and certainly has considerable charm.

If I'm remembering that passage as well, isn't that the one where he uses several metaphors in a row? If so, I think it again points up his frequent use of cliches.

Regretting her character map ain't working,

-=MacKenna


From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:02:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC Number of guns in a salute

In this month's read, TMC, we see several numbers of guns used for saluting:

p.86... 9 to a Captain
p.104... 13 to a Commodore
p.86... 17 to the Admiral

Is there a chart or reference to the code of honor when firing guns on salute? I assume that 21 guns is at the top of the list as that is the big send off at funerals.

Barney Simon
NYC


From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:42:56 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC Number of guns in a salute

that 21 guns is at the top of the list

also saluting heads of state

Blatherin' John B


From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:41:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC JA's responsibility at Ile de la Passe

No one in the book seems too worried, but what would JA's responsibility before a Court Marshal or otherwise, have been for the "appalling disaster at the Ile de la Passe"?

Barney Simon
NYC


From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:14:50 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC JA's responsibility at Ile de la Passe

My recollection is that Jack Aubrey's real-life counterpart, Commodore Josias Rowley, was not court-martialed for the Ile de la Passe disaster. He was not present at the battle of course, and his subsequent quick action in regaining the initiative and in combatting the French vessels at sea probably did not hurt either.

Bruce Trinque
41°37'53"N
72°22'51"W


From: Ray Martin
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:47:23 -0000
Subject: The mauritius command - POB a practising?

The other day some dear lissun reminded me of the humorous opening pages of TMC. On page 16 of the harper Collins Edn (2nd page of writing) we find the bit where Stephen is collecting mushrooms to take to Jack.

"On his saddle bow lay a net, filled with a variety of mushrooms - bolets of all kinds, blewits, chanterelles, jews ears - and now, seeing a fine flush of St Bruno' collops, he sprang from his horse...."

Now bolets, chanterelles, even jew's ears and blewitts are all common enough English mushrooms, but I had never before heard of St Bruno's collops. Neither of my (admittedly smallish) field guides to British fungi mentioned them at all; so I tried the web. Just about the only search which returned anything about St Bruno and collops (collops being a Scottish/Irish corruption of escalope, by the way) was

http://indigo.ie/~kfinlay/jbarrington/jonahindex.htm

This site happens to be part of a larger site called Chapters of Dublin History, and the reference in question appears in Chapter 5 "Irish Dissipation" of a book entitled "Personal sketches of Jonah Barrington".

The story involves various 18th Century? merry japes on St. Stephen's Day, and the collops in question were cut from a cow.

So it looks to me as if POB was practising upon us with his St Bruno's collops; as he has practised upon us before by using his extensive reading of obscure texts.

Of course, this may just be speculation - but I wouldn't put it past the old feller -

Would you?

Cheers!
Ray@TheBay

55:044.17 North
1:48.90 West


From: Linnea
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:48:47 -0500
Subject: Group Read: The Mauritius Command

As The Mauritius Command opens, I was struck again how POB accentuates Jack's and Stephen's different milieus: Jack isn't just keenly attuned to the winds, clouds, airs, breezes, but is now observing the heavens with his hand-ground telescope from his own little observatory. And Stephen is found riding in a deep muddy lane and so "earthy" that he has gathered the most elemental products, mushrooms, as a treat for the household at Ashgrove cottage.

It was wonderful to read the passage where the seabird is flushed by crows, and be alerted to the deeper meaning that one Lissun discovered. (To my everlasting shame, I can't remember who spied that, forgive me.)

I read the domestic descriptions with keen attention to their reference to Alice in Wonderland, thanks to Jerry Shurman, but would never in a million years have smoked them without his insight. I might add that perhaps Stephen's mushroom gathering is a reference to Alice's encounter with a caterpillar:

"She stretched herself up on tiptoe, and peeped over the edge of the mushroom, and her eyes immediately met those of a large blue caterpillar, that was sitting on the top with its arms folded, quietly smoking a long hookah, and taking not the smallest notice of her or of anything else. "

Jack is so proud of his cabbages, complains that he gets precious little encouragement when he cuts one: "Always this silly cry of caterpillars. Lord, if they had ate a tenth part of what we have ate in the way of weevils and bargemen in our biscuit....they would thank Heaven fasting for an honest green caterpillar." Then Stephen notices his mushroom offerings flung onto the dunghill.

The "incongruous great objects never designed for a cottage" which Sophie's mother had brought with her from Mapes Court reflect the episode in Alice when she drinks from the little magic bottle, becoming tiny in relation to the huge furniture.

I still can't believe how Jerry discovered this correlation with Alice. I bet POB was hugging himself when he thought of this, and perhaps he waited til death for someone to smoke it, in vain, until now.

I looked "Alice" up on the Web and found a beautiful site:

http://the-office.com/bedtime-story/alice-background.htm

with all the most popular historical and modern illustrations for the book. This is a great site of bedtime stories for parents and grandparents.

~~ Linnea Angermuller


From: Ladyshrike@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 10:17:28 EST
Subject: Speaking of Mauritius...

MacKennaC@AOL.COM writes:

"The moon is gone,
The sun is riz,
I wonder where
Mauritius is?"

Not long ago on some wildlife program or other, Mauritius Island and it's efforts to save some very endangered species was featured. (Islands are always problematic when new species are introduced, e.g. cats and rats.)

Mauritius it seems has evolved into a rather trendy resort:

http://www.maurinet.com/mauritius.html

Is it still in the South Atlantic waters off the coast of Africa? Not nearer due to tectonic plate shifts or something?

The story of the Mauritian Wildlife Foundation and their efforts to save several bird species can be found at

http://www.maurinet.com/wildlife.html

Alice


From: Thistle Farm
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:28:45 EST
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...

Way Way way off the coast, Alice.


From: Bill Nyden
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 07:33:39 -0800
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...

Er, the other side of Africa, in the Indian Ocean.

Bill Nyden
a Rose by another name at Home
37° 23' 28" N 122° 04' 09" W


From: Thistle Farm
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:32:39 EST
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...

Oh yes, Indian ocean, not Atlantic.


From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:28:26 EST
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...

The Indian Ocean, surely -- unless those tectonic plates have been shuffling themselves.

Bruce Trinque
41°37'53"N 72°22'51"W


From: Micheal Bloomberg
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:40:14 -0600
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...

Here I thought it was in the Indian Ocean, at appoximately 57E 20s.

Micheal Bloomberg, G.G.
45:03:13 N
93:15:17 W

Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.


From: Ladyshrike@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:33:36 EST
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...

Earlier today I wrote:

Is it still in the South Atlantic waters off the coast of Africa? Not nearer due to tectonic plate shifts or something?

To which several people echoed Bill Nyden's reply:

Er, the other side of Africa, in the Indian Ocean.

Ah! Good. It *has* moved.

Alice, relieved


From: Peter Mackay
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:10:19 +1100
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...

Lot of odd islands in the South Indian Ocean. Jutland, for instance:

Examine the battle of Jutland.

What conclusions can be drawn?

Jutland is a small island in the South Indian Ocean where, in the autumn of 1932, one of the most significant modern battlefleet actions was fought between the fleets of Italy and Japan.

Jutland, so named for its central peak which is oddly (almost obscenely) shaped, was settled by the French late in the nineteenth century, at a time when Greece and other minor European powers were snapping up the last few colonial tidbits. The population is remarkably chauvinistic and contributed an annual brigade to the French cause during the First World War. The island, at the time of the battle, was beginning to recover from a severe manpower shortage and was a popular stop for cruise liners.

At the time of the Vienna Crisis, it became necessary for the contributing nations to make a show of extending their various spheres of influence in order to strengthen their hands at the later conference and hopefully derive a position of power from the treaty to be signed thereafter.

Accordingly Italy sent forth a "flag-showing" squadron of four modern battleships and an aircraft-carrier to visit far-flung European colonies, in blatant imitation of the earlier United States' "Great White Fleet" of several years before. As they approached Jutland, where a ball and open day were scheduled, lookouts reported a number of ships approaching from the east.

This was the Japanese Fifth Battle Squadron, consisting of two battleships, an escorting destroyer or two and a number of support vessels. The Japanese, busily scouting out anchorages, facilities and targets for the "Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere", had selected Jutland as a recreation port to mark the end of a week of exercise.

As the two fleets identified each other, there was a flurry of activity on the bridges of the Japanese and Italian flagships.

The two nations, nominal allies at the end of the First World War, were now nominal enemies through the interplay of shifting alliances and the League of Nations stance on the Ethiopian Intervention. Normally this state of affairs was of little consequence, as the two countries had no direct contact. What little trade there was continued through intermediaries, if the paper conflict was observed at all. However, the encounter of two well-armed fleets could not be shrugged aside. Long-range radio communication with superiors being unavailable at that time, the two admirals fell back on their standing orders, which dictated the speedy engagement of hostile forces.

The Japanese Admiral Harpoon, quickly taking note of the disparity in force, decided not to anchor and instead altered course to pass behind the island, hoping to escape once out of sight of the Italian fleet. However, while the speedy modern warships were able to interpose the bulk of Jutland, the oilers and support vessels trailed behind and attracted the attention of the Italians.

The Italian flagship, Spatlaese, led the Grappa, Crouchen, and Eagle in line-ahead pursuit around the curve of the island, with their minor vessels following.

Jutland, being but a small island, was not ideally suited to the intended Japanese plan, and as the two fleets circled the central peak, the respective flagships almost simultaneously sighted the slowest of the enemy ships, bringing up the rear of the battle-lines. A strange situation now ensued, with, in each case, a fast modern battleship out of sight of all opposition except for a slow, unarmoured, and essentially unarmed fleet auxiliary.

The first shots of the battle of Jutland were fired in defiance by the Italian oiler Chianti Napoli . At the extreme range of the 5-inch stern gun, the Italians opened fire on the huge grey super-dreadnought bearing down on them. There was no no doubt as to the outcome, once the Kirin returned fire with a salvo of ten 13.5 inch armour-piercing shells. The sound of heavy naval gunfire boomed across the water, sounding the death-knell of the tanker, which veered out of line and slowed to lie dead in the water, a helpless target for the succeeding Japanese battleships.

On the other side of the island, the Italian van then opened fire on the elderly Japanese freighter Saki Maru, which promptly burst into flames and exploded.

Over the next two hours the two fleets circled the island at their best speeds, chewing up their slower and crippled opponents as they fell behind. The tankers and storeships were the first to go, followed in good time by the slower and older battleships. The ex-RN light carrier Eagle, attempting to cut a corner, ran straight up onto a reef and was pounded by the Japanese each time they passed. To this day the shoal is known as Eagle Rock and the rusting remains shelter rich reserves of lobsters.

A brave attempt by the Japanese destroyer Konga to overtake the Italians failed when the enemy cruiser Crouchen , lagging behind with a ruptured boiler, demolished the lighter ship with two torpedoes, only to be picked off in her turn by the oncoming Akaga .

Eventually, as ship after ship fell out of line, the contest become a test of speed between the modern battleships, each striving to outpace the others. By 1734 the only ships remaining battleworthy were the two flagships, Kirin and Spatlaese , each of which had vanquished a succession of unequal opponents.

With all but the opposing flagships out of action, the result of the battle hinged upon the skill of the gunnery teams. As the Kirin and Spatlaese settled down to a one-to one gunnery duel, the importance of quick teamwork and accurate spotting became critical. On the Italian ship, the Fire Observation Officer (FOO), from his post high on the foremast, observed the fall of shot and passed control orders to his spotting-top crew, who calculated individual turret bearings and elevations. The Italian FOO, Commander Pico, was about to acheive his destiny in an act which would make him the object of naval comment throughout the world.

Pico, hitherto a man of indifferent skills, gave the order for rapid salvo fire on the Japanese ship. Observing the first salvo to fall short, he increased the gun range, seeking a "straddle", a combination of under and over shots guaranteed to cause a high percentage of target hits. As the officer with the best observation, Pico was also tasked with the job of reporting enemy fire and estimating point of impact so that appropriate avoiding action could be taken if possible. As the splashes of the Italian salvo subsided, the Japanese guns blinked once as they sent ten heavy shells flying towards the Spatlaese .

Commander Pico, catching sight of the shells of the salvo as they reached the apex of their trajectory, calculated that they would land directly on his position on the Spatlaese , and promptly voided himself. A second or so later most of the shells passed through the ship's masts and exploded harmlessly in the sea beyond. One shell impacted the spotting-top mainstay and exploded after the armour-piercing fuze's sixth-second delay. Luckily the shrapnel caused only minor casualties, but the blast from the mid-air explosion stripped away cloth and other loose objects from exposed positions around the upperworks. The huge battle ensign, the Admiral's last signal hoist, and the spotting team's uniforms were shredded by the shock. The FOO's faeces rained down upon the bridge, speckling the immaculate Italian uniforms of the officers.

Admiral Martini, his navigating officer and their aides and assistants promptly hurried below to change their uniforms and renew the battle in clean linen. Though these officers were largely killed when a 13.5 inch shell from the next salvo exploded in the wardroom, the dazed but vengeful Commander Pico maintained his post and directed the flagship's fire with almost inspired brilliance. Salvo after salvo rained down upon the hapless Japanese Kirin, silencing the remaining gun turrets and starting a fire in the superstructure.

Admiral Harpoon wisely ordered his flag captain to break off the action on receiving damage control reports. As Jutland sank below the horizon in the gathering darkness, he set a course for the neutral port of Honolulu in the Pacific, where he, his ship and his crew were interned for the duration of the conflict.

Though the Italian fleet had been severely mauled, indeed decimated, they retained possession of the battlefield and the resultant newspaper reports enabled the Italian government to press for reduced ceramic imposts at the conference. Though the trade treaty was set aside during the Second World War and remains in abeyance to this day, the episode was seen as a diplomatic coup throughout Europe.

The most significant lessons learnt from the battle of Jutland were important in the great clash of arms only seven years later, though thankfully for the security of the Free World, neither Japan nor Italy followed up these conclusions, preferring to follow more orthodox and conservative methods of warfare. Oddly enough, this is a common characteristic of latter-day conflict, where the veterans of past wars, usually risen to command ranks such as Admiral or General, will endeavour to refight their previous battles, ignoring the vital lessons of the opening actions. Here is a case where the more flexible doctrine will often prevail at the expense of superior force or moral superiority.

One of the most important conclusions, therefore, is that senior officers may be safely ignored unless they possess recent battle experience. In fact, there is a good case for the policy of eliminating all officers over the age of forty on the declaration of war and immediately (so as to gain from maximisation of training time) "bumping up" all junior officers two notches in the rank structure.

Less vital conclusions are threefold:

Selection of leave ports may affect the destiny of nations.
A stern chase is not necessarily the longest chase.
When the FOO shits, wear it.


From: Charles Miller
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:45:53 -1000
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...

Peter--

An important and solemn reminder! And I thought you were going to mention Pico's counterpart on the Kirin, the Ballistic Artillery Reporter...

Charles


From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:45:38 EST
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...

Truly, Peter, your command of naval history is daunting. Uh, just how many bottles of chianti did you dispose of before beginning this essay?

Bruce Trinque
41°37'53"N 72°22'51"W


From: Edmund Burton
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:11:34 -0600
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...

Many a tale came in by mail
That dark and stormy day,
But the shaggiest dog in the gunroom log
Was writ by Peter Mackay.


From: Gerry Strey
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:19:46 -0600
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...

Peter, you are dangerous, and while my admiration for you is profound, I hope never to come within a hundred miles of you. Our baseball date at Miller Park, that wonder of the Midwest, is off.

Gerry Strey (Prudent in Madison, Wisconsin)


From: Alec O'Flaherty
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 19:24:47 +0000
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage

peter.mackay@BIGPOND.COM writes:

3rd ult?

And Mary S writes

Ooh yes, I'd forgotten that charming piece of period. Thanks!

Not really so 'period'.

That terminology was in common ugage in formal business letters written here(Ireland) up to the early 1980's. I hate to admit that I used it myself!
I'm a mere child of 42.
I believe it is still used to this day in legal letters-although thankfully it been a while since I received one.

alec


From: Susan Wenger
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:25:24 -0800
Subject: groupread:TMC:Welshwoman

On pages 26-27 Norton paperback, Mrs Williams discussing the mushrooms Stephen brought:

"Only this morning, only this very morning," she said, "I caught the cook fingering a heap of toadstools. Can you imagine such wickedness, Dr Maturin? To finger toadstools and then to touch my grandchildren's food with her nasty hands! There's a Welshwoman for you!"

As we know now, O'Brian's first unsuccessful marriage was to a Welshwoman. Is he repeating the hostility of his own family against his first wife, or is he playing on a general stereotype of Welswomen as evil beings, or is POB himself of the belief that his wife was wicked, or . . .?


From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:42:03 EST
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:Welshwoman

I just put it down to that bigoted woman's continual ignorance ,stupidity and bigotry. Using her to make the statement does not(to me) reflect on POB' feelings about the Welsh.

Blatherin' John B


From: Martin
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 18:27:19 -0000
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:Welshwoman

Given that everything Mrs Williams says is offensive and malicious I would say that it says more against the attitudes of some English people than against the Welsh.
Remember that the same O'Brian created the character of Bronwen in Testimonies.

Martin @ home:
50° 44' 58" N


From: Susan Wenger
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:29:19 -0800
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:Welshwoman

I don't have the books at hand with their pubdates, but I imagine he created Bronwen when he was married to a wild Welsh lass, and he put some words about Welsh women into Mrs Williams' mouth after it became a no-go ?


From: Rowen 84
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 00:35:24 EST
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:Welshwoman

Testimonies was first published as Three Bear Witness in April 1952. Although I don't know when he actually wrote it seven years earlier in 1945 he was divorced in June, married Mary in July, and changed his name in August; after which POB and Mary lived in Wales, in Cwm Croesor, experiencing the background for the novel. It seems reasonable to assume it was not created while he was married to Elizabeth.

Rowen


From: Peter Mackay
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 22:22:06 +1100
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:Welshwoman

Testimonies was first published as Three Bear Witness in April 1952.

Oooh! A link to Astrid!


From: Mike French
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:09:25 -0000
Subject: Fw: [POB] groupread:TMC:Welshwoman

Given that the surname "Williams" is not noted as being from East of the Severn, I would venture to suggest that this is POB setting the cocked hat on Mrs. Williams's inveterate stupidity and spite. She will cut off the nose of her own ancestry to win a silly point. Try reading that passage in a Welsh accent,and you will see it could be straight out of a Dylan Thomas.

Mike French
Friend of the Polychrest


From: Mary S Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 16:40:50 EST Subject: Re: Fw: [POB] groupread:TMC:Welshwoman

Mrs. Williams's inveterate stupidity and spite. She will cut off the nose of her own ancestry to win a silly point.

Her husband's.

savage, explosive, obstinate and cantankerous [HMSS 78]

Mary S
35° 58' 11" N
86° 48' 57" W


From: Ruth A Abrams
Subject: groupread:TMC:Welshwoman
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 01:10:21 -0500

subject line should really read "toadstools."

Isn't the slam against the cook for the "toadstools" some kind of irony? Maturin brought those wild mushrooms for the family and he watches without saying anything as the cook gets sacked for having them in the kitchen. I don't think the Welsh thing was POB's indictment of people from Wales, but perhaps I am wrong?

I love mushrooms, but the love of my life can't bear them. Some mycological friends promised to take me mushroom hunting in the spring. Indeed, one is my friend who most reminds me of Maturin. The hobbit love of mushrooms is one of the many things that continues to endear LOTR to me...

Ruth A.

Which I think we shouldn't read any Alice or LOTR references into TMC for the mushrooms--might as well start looking for biblical references any time they eat fish...


From: Don Seltzer
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:45:58 -0500
Subject: Re: GRP TMC:Welshwoman

I don't think that Mrs. Williams' fling against Welshwomen reflected POB's views, but I do think that Susan Wenger might be on to something in connecting the dismissed cook with his first wife, Elizabeth Jones. In another passage from TMC p. 23, POB had a little fun in his choice of name,

The back door opened, to display a square, red-faced woman, the spit of Mrs. Williams but for a cast in her left eye and, when she spoke, a shrill Welsh voice. She had her box on her shoulder.

'Why, Bessie,' cried Jack. 'Where are you going? What are you about'.

Don Seltzer


From: Linnea
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:45:25 -0500
Subject: Group Read TMC: French ships

Reading now that Jack's heart lifts when he see the "Africaine," coming to help him pound the French under the RN captain, Corbett--"...and the actual sight of her raised Jack's heart still higher: she was a thirty-six-gun eighteen-pounder frigate, French-built of course, and one of the finest sailers in the Royal Navy, particularly on a wind."
French, but a prize and now sailed by the RN, of course.
It occurs to me that all through the books, there is note taken of how well the French build their ships and how some French captains and crews are very good sailors.

But I wonder what it is that makes the ships so good: the design? the craftsmen? the shipyards? All of the above? On other counts, the British seem to disparage the French in the books. It is surprising to learn that the English, with their mastery of the sea, admired these French-built ships. Why didn't they copy them and build even better ones?

~~ Linnea, a lubber through and through


From: Peter Mackay
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 13:46:30 +1100
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

One wonders. I suspect that the English shipyards weren't quite the thing.

The main reason that the French kept losing ships to the British was because they didn't get as much practice, being largely cooped up in port by blockade. So in an even action the British would be able to outsail and outfight the French.

The Frogs could make up for this to a certain degree by having better weapon systems (read ships), but as I recently pointed out a better weapon system needs to be employed to its full extent to gain an advantage, and if the French weren't as practised as the British, well all they were doing was giving ships away.

Imagine (most of you, Susan C excepted) if you met up with a Formula 1 driver and agreed to a race around a F1 circuit - you in his car, he in your family sedan. Who would win?

You'd have the faster car, to be sure, but driving it to its full extent would be way beyond you, and you'd come to grief at the first corner if you went at anything like full speed. Whereas the professional racing driver would hop in to the sedan, plant his foot and whiz around the corners at a far greater speed than you would dare to try.

You'd almost certainly lose the race on the first lap. But if you had a while to practice in the racing car, you would be able to do a lot better.

The French didn't often get that chance to practise. Their ships of the line stayed in port and rarely got any sort of a chance to exercise together, whereas the British were always at sea, performing fleet manouvres on a daily basis and attaining amazingly high standards.


From: Linnea
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:10:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

Aha! That puts a new perspective on it for me. Thank you, Peter. I thought the racing car vs. family sedan was a great analogy.

~~ Linnea (feeling left out, never having read LOTR--eek, such an admission) (But I have read most of the other books mentioned. Should like to re-read War and Peace someday.)


From: Adam Quinan
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:08:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

There was a discussion on this topic on the Norton POB Forum a while back, the consensus was that the British ships were probably sturdier because they had to be at sea on blockade duty in all North Atlantic weathers and were also expected to sail to the Far Side of the World, fully laden with supplies. The French ships hung around in port and only dashed out to try and invade Ireland or snap up a prize, so they were built more for speed and less for carrying capacity and sea kindliness in a storm.

Adam Quinan

'Grab a chance and you won't be sorry for a might-have-been'
Commander Ted Walker R.N.
Somewhere around 43° 46' 21"N, 79° 22' 51"W
For some of my family history see
http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/quin.htm


From: Susan Wenger
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 19:13:12 -0800
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

IIRC, another factor was that France had access to better wood, cordage, supplies.

=====
To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please visit http://www.sea-room.com


From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 23:34:00 EST
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

Why would that necessarily be the case- except for british navy miserliness. they had the merchant navy and the money to buy supplies from all over the world- Except for wood which would be bulky to transport,, they should have been able to compete. and they did seem to have enough wood to build their SOL.

Blatherin' John B


From: Randy Hees
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 19:30:33 -0800
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

Apparently, the French hull design was better and made for a faster ship. Their guns and gunners were possibly better. The British knew this and tried to copy French ship design, but not always with success.

The British definitely had more practice. Their ships lived at sea, but this was a two edged sword. Ships at sea take a beating, and need repairs, so the French ships, sitting in port were frequently in better repair.

The French didn't help their cause when during the French revolution, they killed many of their own officers.

The Americans observing all of this are said to have built a navy with French bottoms (designs) American wood (this was a significant advantage over a de-forested Britain) and British trained sailors.

Randy Hees
37:34:15.197N 122:17:55.090W


From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 23:01:47 EST
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

Linnea writes:

It is surprising to learn that the English, with their mastery of the sea, admired these French-built ships. Why didn't they copy them and build even better ones?

Well, actually the British DID copy quite a number of those French-built ships -- and sometimes Spanish ones and those of other navies. Although the notion of the superiority of French-built frigates seems quite popular in nautical fiction, from my reading it appears to me that this sentiment was far from universal. To a considerable extent the Royal Navy recognized that these French frigates were usually rather lightly built to stand up to the kind of duty necessitated by blockade duty and that often they lacked the hull storage capacity required for very long voyages. The reality is that French frigates were designed for a different role than that of a Royal Navy frigate, staying closer to home with less exposure to the elements.

Bruce Trinque
41°37'53"N 72°22'51"W


From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 23:15:35 EST
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

One of our knowledgeable lissums explained that philosophies were totally different- french went for Frigates and quick sorties- british built for long voyage and blockades the British Frigate captains appreciated the French ships, but the LOA disdained them in the grand scheme.

I mentioned once that Aubrey said the French built better ships and the americans were better overall navy men- so why was the RN so exalted ?-

Blatherin' John B


From: Adam Quinan
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 23:57:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

The Royal Navy men and ships were exalted because, in the long run, they beat everyone else and controlled the seas. Individually there were some occasions when their ships were beaten by another Navy's ships but not very often and to no lasting effect. Whether it was by skill, numbers or persistence the RN performed its function admirably.

Adam Quinan


From: Roger Marsh
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:51:39 +0100
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

Linnea wrote:

It occurs to me that all through the books, there is note taken of how well the French build their ships and how some French captains and crews are very good sailors.
But I wonder what it is that makes the ships so good: the design? the craftsmen? the shipyards? All of the above? On other counts, the British seem to disparage the French in the books. It is surprising to learn that the English, with their mastery of the sea, admired these French-built ships. Why didn't they copy them and build even better ones?

Well, that's a complex question not susceptible to a simple answer; they were indeed copied by the British and used for derivitives when appropriate, but usually adapted to British tactical and strategic needs which were different from the French priorities; it depends too on what type of ship we are considering - First rates? Frigates? Cutters?

French vessels were not necessarily better than British, they emphasised different qualities in the design compromise which is always present in shipbuilding; you can improve one quality, but always at the cost of another, and French frigate designers, for example (since the canon is centred around a small French frigate), chose to be superior in speed in lighter conditions OFF the wind rather than good seakeepers which would make well and fast to windward on heavy conditions, in which weather the British frigate might well catch its French counterpart and then be both a better gun platform and more manoeverable. Again, the British frigate captains and the Admiralty had different agenda; French frigate prizes were popular amongst British captains because of their reputation for speed which may equate to their winning prize money, but less so with the Admiralty since they were lighter-built and hence expensive to maintain, were worse sea-boats in all weathers for the months and years at a stretch required for them to stay at sea on blockade, and could stow less stores, limiting their range and endurance.

But this is just scratching the surface of the subject.

Regards,

Roger Marsh


From: Peter Mackay
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 21:56:05 +1100
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

Bruce Trinque wrote:

To a considerable extent the Royal Navy recognized that these French frigates were usually rather lightly built to stand up to the kind of duty necessitated by blockade duty and that often they lacked the hull storage capacity required for very long voyages. The reality is that French frigates were designed for a different role than that of a Royal Navy frigate, staying closer to home with less exposure to the elements.

Echoed a century later in the design of dreadnoughts. The British had a global empire to defend and their battleships had to accommodate large crews for long voyages in a variety of climates. The German ships had crews who usually lived ashore in barracks and were specifically designed for relatively short cruises in the Continental littoral. Hence they were better able to fight a sea battle, not having to carry so much extra.

Having said that, and there is no doubt that the German ships were better fighting vessels, especially after catering for the defects exposed at Dogger Bank and elsewhere, they still lost most encounters. Jutland might have been a tactical win for the High Seas Fleet, especially considering the disparity in numbers, but it was a strategic defeat.

This time it wasn't the superiority in experience and skill, for both sides were fairly even in that regard, but the fact that the Germans couldn't afford to lose too many ships otherwise the disparity would be too great to even consider battle except in a carefully planned ambush.


From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 17:28:22 EST
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

Jutland might have been a tactical win for the High Seas Fleet, especially considering the disparity in numbers, but it was a strategic defeat.

which side had most? The Japanese or the Italians?
:-)

Blatherin' John B


From: Gregory Edwards
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 06:53:57 -0800
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

As I recall from some of the background books I have read, the french ships were a bit faster, but the british ships could turn quicker and were better in a rough sea. However the quality of british ships varied greatly according to who and how they were built and how long since they had a full refit.

The british had more practice in sailing than the french, and that was the probably the biggest factor.

Greg Edwards


From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 20:12:11 EST
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

Robert Gardiner, in his "Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars", discusses in several places the influence of French designs and also comparisons of the relative quality of French ships versus English designs. Emulation of French hulls was more a phenomenon of the French Revolutionary Wars rather than the Napoleonic. Gardiner comments: "In the field of frigate design, by the time war was renewed in 1803 none of Britain's enemies had anything radical to offer ... It is very noticeable that none of the many french prizes in Royal Navy service turned in exceptional performances, and from surviving Sailing Quality reports it appears that despite the acknowledged British skill in 'ship tunint', many ex-French frigates were not quite the equal of the best British-built performers. French ships were widely believed to be excellent sailors downwind, but vulnerable because less weatherly than their pursuers. Furthermore, close-hauled they do not seem to have sailed particularly fast: 9-9 1/2 knots is the best to be found in surviving reports. They also carried their batteries slightly lower than British frigates and tended to be more lively in a seaway, so were poorer fighting machines in consequence. On the other hand, as British ships had become longer, they had lost their traditional superiortiy in handiness, any advantage in manoevering now largely depending on the relative skill of the crews. Although the British had removed riders from their ships and experimented with novel forms of fastening during these years, French ships were still regarded as too lightly built; and they consistently failed to live up to British stowage requirements for long cruises. It is difficult to escape the conclusion that while British frigate design had improved immeasurably in two decades, France in 1815 had not moved on much since 1815."

Bruce Trinque
41°37'53"N 72°22'51"W


From: Pawel Golik
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:46:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

There will be probably many more learned answers to this, but let me point out just a few things. First: the British had a very serious problem with wood for their ships - England being already deforested. That's why ships built in India and other colonies had a great reputation, which I believe is also mentioned by POB a few times.

The French excelled in lighter, faster ships, like frigates, the advantage in the ships of the line was not that obvious.

The French Navy suffered a lot in the political turmoil of the Revolution. Many officers were of course of aristocratic birth, and lots of them lost their heads. The chaos following the fall of monarchy and the period of revolutionary terror did lots of damage to the navy, human expertise cannot be rebuilt as easily and as quickly as the ships themselves. RN crews generally excelled at gunnery, and as Jack well knew, it was a decisive factor in naval warfare.

Interestingly, French privateers had excellent crews and were often more formidable opponents than the regular French navy ships of comparable size.

Pawel

http://www.gen.emory.edu/cmm/people/staff/pgolik.html
Currently at 33°48'53"N 84°19'25"W
Home is at 52°12'25"N 21°5'37"E


From: Roger Marsh
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 01:10:18 +0100
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships

Linnea wrote, quoting The Canon:

"Reading now that Jack's heart lifts when he see the "Africaine," coming to help him pound the French under the RN captain, Corbett--"...and the actual sight of her raised Jack's heart still higher: she was a thirty-six-gun eighteen-pounder frigate, French-built of course, and one of the finest sailers in the Royal Navy, particularly on a wind."

Actually, "Jack" is wrong here to some degree; "Africaine" was rated 38/40 in British service (some conflict of information here), was fast off the wind like many French-designed and built frigates but comparatively leewardly and not particularly fast "on a wind." The average British-concept larger frigate such as one of the "Ledas" or "Livelys" would have both fore-reached on her and sailed faster to windward, particularly as the wind got up, so could probably have outsailed her on a wind in medium to rough conditions - other things being equal, state of rigging, quality of command and crew, cleanness of bottom/degree of fouling and drag, &c., which are always other considerations to take into account.

"Africaine" was, however, more suited than most French frigates to British operational requirements, having a fuller midships section than typical (as per Gardiner) so enabling her to store 6 months provisions; her length to breadth and to depth ratios were however nevertheless fairly typically French, longer and shallower than the British approach, giving her the typical speed/leewardliness/manoeuvrability/speed of turning, tacking and wearing characteristiscs of a French frigate design as compared to a British one.

Regards,

Roger Marsh


From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 01:06:00 EST
Subject: GROUPREAD TMC; a few POB literary tricks

Going through TMC, I was delighted to see that Maturin's fit of anger at the way secrets cd not be kept includes the words, "All, all of a piece throughout."

Because in PC, you'll remember that he tells Diana, when they discuss her chances of hunting down a husband, "Your chase has a beast in view."

In both books, Maturin was quoting, of course, Dryden's Secular Masque:

All, all of a piece throughout
Thy chase had a beast in view
Thy wars brought nothing about
Thy lovers were all untrue
'Tis well an old age is out
And time to begin a new.

That new "age" by the way, was to come in with the year 1700. The poem is fun to read in the context of the century just past.

===================

In another context, it's pleasant to see Jack quoting Shakespeare, correctly for once, when he says, early in that same visit from Stephen, talking of lunatics: "they squeak and gibber in the market place." Just why POB gives this quotation, I dunno. It leads to nothing that I can see. You remember: speaking of the supernatural warnings of the death of Caesar: The graves stood tenantless/and the sheeted dead did squeak and gibber in the Roman streets." Squeak and gibber--one of my favorite phrases that I trot out from time to time; it's pleasant to think that maybe POB did the same, and just threw the words to Jack as a favor. (Or is this a faint, a vy faint, look ahead at little Brigit's early days?)

====================

Jack finds out early on about Sophie's disinclination for two-back-beasting it. A year or so ago, the Gunroom had a discussion of the bull as a stand-in for Jack in that same scene: Jack, staring at the cow, says, "the fact of the matter is that she refuses the bull." Elsewhere in the canon, Jack is referred to as "Yardo, the parish bull."

I disremember, however, if we saw that Jack's stand-in not only by the animal kingdom, but among the plants as well. Consider Sophie again, that rosy darling. "Here is Sophie's garden," Jack tells Maturin. "It will be full of roses, come next June. Do you think they look a trifle spindly, Stephen... I don't have much luck with ornamental plants: that was supposed to be a lavender hedge, do you see? [And then the sentence that clinches all.] The roots come from Mapes."

It's only a little later that he tells Maturin that there is no chance of another child coming along, ever.

Charlezzzz


From: Susan Wenger
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 07:11:15 -0800
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC; a few POB literary tricks

More, more!

Susan, cheerful after reading this fine post.


From: Ray McPherson
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:04:13 -0800
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC; a few POB literary tricks

Maturin was quoting, of course, Dryden's Secular Masque:

In another context, it's pleasant to see Jack quoting Shakespeare, correctly for once,

Maybe POB likes to display his knowledge thereof.

Ray McP


From: Kathryn Guare
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 09:15:10 -0800
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC; a few POB literary tricks

Slight spoiler for HMS Surprise below:

And in HMSS Stephen quotes almost exactly the passage you mention, just after they have buried Mr. Stanhope on Pulo Batak:

"Jack looked out of the stern window at the distant, receding land, dull purple now, with a rainstorm beating down on it. He said 'We came on a fool's errand.'

Stephen said, as though in reply,

All all of a piece...etc." (p. 273, Norton)

At the end of the scene Jack, with his mind on getting home before Sophie can marry the parson, says "You should not have said that about lovers, Stephen."

It must have been an important piece for O'Brian, for him to quote it in three different books!

Kathryn Guare


From: Susan Wenger
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 10:45:42 -0800
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC; a few POB literary tricks

Ray McPherson wrote:

Maybe POB likes to display his knowledge thereof.

It's fun. A lesser writer would have drawn arrows for the reader, with something like "as Shakespeare said . .. "

Sometimes I think POB wrote for the sheer joy of the writing, and didn't give a fig whether the reader smoked his allusions. That's why it's such a joy when we do.

- Susan


From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 18:45:04 EST
Subject: GROUP READING, TMC: Jack and Sophie and Diana too

Spoilers follow, of course.

Chapter 1 of TMC has Jack talking to Maturin about the married state, and though he won't come out with any statement downing Sophie, it's clear, both from what little he does say, and from other hints that POB gives us, that she is like that cow who has nothing to say to the bull. No more children to come--ever.

In yet-to-come books we make a few discoveries: that Philip was engendered on the night of Jack's departure, and we learn that Diana and Clarissa eventually give Sophie some advice on how to improve matters. "I thought I just had to lie there and let it happen," says Sophie, or words to that effect.

It's interesting to look back into Post Captain and see that Jack and Diana have indeed been at it (that unfortunate gift of perfume from Maturin!)

So now here are a couple of quotations from further on in the canon. The first is from Desolation Island: Sophie, talking to Jack in Chapter 1, speaking of Diana, says "After all, she had shown herself to be -- well, to be, what shall I say? -- a light woman."

Jack tries to justify Diana (and himself) a little. "the older I grow, the less I think of capers of that kind," and, of course, gets himself on dangerous ground. Almost immediately, a POB animal appears. Though it merely carries the hairdresser for Mrs. Willams, it is "a terrible animal...a dull-blue creature that might have been a pony if it had any ears." Its appearance seems to save Jack from bumbling himself into more terrible dull-blue trouble.

And yet it seems that the "light woman" reference sticks in Jack's craw.

Because, a full book later, in Fortune of War, when he catches Diana as she jumps into the small boat as they escape from Boston, he says, "Nobody could call you a light woman, Diana." On my first few readings of FOW, I took that merely to be a betise on Jack's part, the kind of damn fool thing a man might say to a former lover who really *is* a light woman...but when we remember Sophie's use to those same words, I think we might read Jack's inner meaning:

"Diana, dear promiscuous gentlemanly lady, my wife doesn't understand you. Or me either, for that matter."

Charlezzzz


From: Susan Wenger
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:31:11 -0800
Subject: Re: GROUP READING, TMC: Jack and Sophie and Diana too

Charlezzzz@AOL.COM wrote:

In yet-to-come books we make a few discoveries: that Philip was engendered on the night of Jack's departure,

George.

Maybe Philip also : } but definitely George.


From: Rosemary Davis
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:27:25 -0500
Subject: Groupread TMC - engendering

I blush to correct as estimable a gentleman as Charlezzzz, but surely you mean it was George, not Philip, who was (tiny TMC spoiler) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > begotten on the night of Jack's departure for the Mauritius command. And this all goes back to POB's masterful use of understatement. When we last see Jack and Sophie together in TMC, they have been arguing, and he resolves to leave that evening, whereupon:

"Sophie then returned to arguments against Jack's leaving quite so soon: tomorrow morning would be far, far better in every way; they could not possibly have his clothes ready before then...(Stephen slips out to avoid a scene)...when he came back he found Jack at the door, staring up at the scudding clouds, with Sophie, looking exceptionally beautiful in her anxiety and emotion, beside him. 'The glass is rising,' said Jack thoughtfully, 'but the wind is still due south...and when you consider where she lays, right up the harbour, there is not a hope of getting her out on this tide.'"

A lesser writer would have made the scene more explicit, but POB leaves it at that...Consider where she lays... Then at the end of the book, Pullings congratulates Jack on his son.

-RD


From: Susan Wenger
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:34:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Groupread TMC - engendering

Rosemary Davis wrote:

When we last see Jack and Sophie together in TMC, they have been arguing, and he resolves to leave that evening, whereupon:

"Sophie then returned to arguments against Jack's leaving quite so soon:

[snip]

'The glass is rising,' said Jack thoughtfully,

Well, that's one way to put it
: }


From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:09:58 EST
Subject: Groupread MC - engendering (tiny spoiler)

Rosemary Davis says,

I blush to correct as estimable a gentleman as Charlezzzz, but surely you mean it was George, not Philip, who was (tiny TMC spoiler)
begotten

Just so.

Rosemary (and a dozen other Lissuns are correct.) I have programmed my dear little Mac to write one thousand times, "It was George engendered there, Philip elsewhere," and I trust it will no longer conflate the two.

Charlezzzz, unbowed


From:"P. Richman"
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 02:35:10 +0000
Subject: groupread:TMC:bull and frog

What did it mean when Stephen said, "You cannot blame the bull because the frog burst: the bull has no comprehension of the affair? "


From: Adam Quinan
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:42:57 -0500
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:bull and frog

I am sure it is a reference to the fable, by Aesop?, of the frog who thinks that he is the biggest and best in the pond. Then a bull comes down to drink and the frog attempts to puff himself up to match or exceed the size of the bull. Unfortunately he bursts and dies in the attempt. The bull is the innocent cause of the frog's demise merely by being there.

Adam Quinan
'Grab a chance and you won't be sorry for a might-have-been'
Commander Ted Walker R.N.
Somewhere around 43° 46' 21"N, 79° 22' 51"W
For some of my family history see
http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/quin.htm


From: losmp
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 23:37:01 -0500
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:bull and frog

The reference is probably to a fable by La Fontaine, per Aesop, about a Frog and a Bull. The frog decides he wants to be as big as the bull, kind of inflates himself in the effort, and bursts in the attempt. Morale, more or less, accept your fate, stay as you were meant to be. And the frog's fate isn't the fault of the bull.

Lois


From: Kerry Webb
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:04:08 +1100
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:bull and frog

It comes from a La Fontaine fable. Here's a sort of description

http://www.uqtr.uquebec.ca/~bougaief/Elderhostel/Fable/frog-grief.html

Kerry

Kerry Webb
Canberra, Australia http://www.alia.org.au/~kwebb/


From: Martin
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 21:21:26 -0000
Subject: Fables of La Fontaine: Was bull and frog

The attributions of this fable to Aesop and La Fontaine remind me of one of Suzannes most prized possessions - a CDROM telling the story of the Tortoise and the Hare. It comes in three languages:

1. English: "Aesop's Fable The Tortoise and the Hare"

2. German: "Aesops Fabel Die Schildkrote und der Hase"

3. French: "D'apres la fable de Jean de La Fontaine Le Lievre et la Tortue"

It would be unworthy to cast any aspersions about national character from this - so I shall just leave them hanging in the air for whoever wishes to take them up...

Suzanne particularly loves this story as it contains her all-time favourite joke. "Why did the chicken cross the road?" She tells this joke to everybody she meets, to universal confusion.

Martin @ home:
50° 44' 58" N
1° 58' 35" W


From: Steve Ross
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:39:26 -0600
Subject: Back from the Far Side of the World; some TMC questions

Having finally returned from my holiday trip abroad, I am now back on "MAIL" and trying to catch up with discussions that took place in the interim through use of the archives. I hope everyone had a rousing holiday and a good LOTR day! (resolutely avoiding becoming involved in any Tolkien threads; there are listservs for that sort of thing . . .)

Frustratingly, I find that neither the Groupread nor the regular discussion archive yet contains much record of whatever chat has been taking place surrounding TMC; I assume there was some pent-up verbosity on this subject since we did hold off on opening it! From my own post-it notes, a few fairly trivial questions if I may (apologies if any of this has already been dealt with):

1.) p. 18 of TMC: Jack says "I had news of him [i.e. Killick] from Collard of Ajax; he sent a sharks' backbone walking-stick for the twins." Whazzat? To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as a "shark's backbone" (any naturalists on the list able to back me up on this?). I wonder whether this makes reference to some object that was in those days known as a shark's backbone, in the same way that people called narwhal's tusks unicorn horns. Any enlightenment?

2.) As always, I find POB's dry humor in delightful full swing here (and a thank-you to Jerry Shulman for his preemptive post, some time ago, concerning Lewis Carrolisms in TMC . . .). One example: pp. 100-101, where Jack is in a joyful daze at the news of his pendant: "Jack looked decently solemn, but his mind was swimming in happiness, a happiness made all the more wholly concrete, real and tangible when the flag-lieutenant's recollections of an occasion upon which he too had eaten something came to an end and Jack could cut the tape and see that his orders were addressed to Commodore Aubrey." (It's that "an occasion upon which he too had eaten something" that delights me!)
But my question pertains to an earlier humorous passage, where Stephen has given Jack the news of his command, but requires him to keep it quiet for the time being (p. 43):
" 'A ship!' cried Jack, springing heavily into the air. There were tears in his eyes, and Stephen saw that he might wish to shake hands at any minute. He disliked all effusion, privately thinking the English far too much given to weeping and the flow of soul; he pursed his lips with a sour expression, and put his hands behind his back."
Does anyone besides me see irony in this? (specifically, in the fact that the Irishman--from a nation often characterized as deeply emotional, not to say lugubrious--disdains the "reserved, stiff-upper-lip" English as too _effusive_?)

3.) One final curiosity, then I will spare you any more musings for the time being: On p. 141 Stephen and his colleague McAdam take a stroll through the island's "tortoise-park, where the disconsolate French superintendent stood thigh-deep among some hundreds of his charges." What is this tortoise-park, some sort of farm or game preserve? Is it like the "Turtle Farm" that I once visited on the Grand Cayman, where thousands of sea turtles are lovingly raised from hatchlings to maturity, and then sold off to the market?

That's enough for now, I think! Take care all.

A complacent pragmatical worldly fellow (HMSS p. 196) . . .

Steve Ross
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W


From: Matt Cranor
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:23:19 -0800
Subject: Re: Back from the Far Side of the World; some TMC questions

a sharks' backbone walking-stick for the twins." Whazzat? To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as a "shark's backbone"

A shark, being a vertebrate animal, does indeed possess a backbone, probably cartilaginous, like the rest of its skeleton. A Google image search yielded one picture of a fossilized shark spine (at a URL so long it wrapped TWICE, so I do not copy it here). It is oddly smooth, for a backbone, but clearly segmented; one wonders how it could be transformed into a walking stick.

Matt Cranor


From: Astrid Bear
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:50:55 -0800
Subject: Re: Back from the Far Side of the World; some TMC questions

3.) One final curiosity, then I will spare you any more musings for the time being: On p. 141 Stephen and his colleague McAdam take a stroll through the island's "tortoise-park, where the disconsolate French superintendent stood thigh-deep among some hundreds of his charges." What is this tortoise-park, some sort of farm or game preserve? Is it like the "Turtle Farm" that I once visited on the Grand Cayman, where thousands of sea turtles are lovingly raised from hatchlings to maturity, and then sold off to the market?

Grand funny bits, indeed! I'll speak only to the last bit though -- I would guess that the tortoise-park would be a place where tortoises are kept pending sale to ships as food. Sort of a corral. I think the concept of "game preserve" didn't exist yet.

Astrid Bear
"and there aren't any moa any moa"


From: Stephen Chambers
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 22:01:29 -0000
Subject: Re: Back from the Far Side of the World; some TMC questions

Game preserves had existed for several hundred years as a form of preserving game for the nobility to slaughter at will. They were preserved from us commoners who would have gladly slaughtered at will for food. Hence the New Forest and Royal Parks plus the various Highlands that were enclosed for the shooting of Grouse and Red Deer.

Stephen Chambers
50° 48' 38" N 01° 09' 15" W
Approx. 180 inches above sea level
When the pin is pulled Mr Grenade is no longer our friend.


From: Peter Mackay
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 07:23:21 +1100
Subject: GROUPREAD: Back from the Far Side of the World; some TMC questions

What is this tortoise-park, some sort of farm or game preserve? Is it like the "Turtle Farm" that I once visited on the Grand Cayman, where thousands of sea turtles are lovingly raised from hatchlings to maturity, and then sold off to the market?

No, it is a place to park tortoises prior to them being consumed. The map of the town shows the actual site(s) as "Parc des Tortues", which puzzled me mightily until I read TMC, when it all clicked into place.

The sense is like an artillery camp or a car park, rather than any sort of garden.


From: Steven K Ross
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:06:15 -0600
Subject: GroupRead TMC: the use of history [was: Re: [POB] Silence about Nelson]

Gerry Strey wrote:

My own guess is that POB omitted much reference to Nelson because introducing a real-life character who is famous even to the non-nautical might have overshadowed Jack and Stephen.

I think this is quite right; besides, POB seems to me to have preferred basing his tales only loosely, if at all, on "real" historical incidents. Therefore a battle as well-known as Trafalgar wouldn't have suited his purposes too well, would it?

Sometimes, as in TMC, we do find quite a close mirroring of actual historical incidents; but it has seemed to me that others share my feeling that this book is not quite up to the standard of some of the others. Certainly, to me it is a bit "thinner" than any of the other First Five (The Aubrey-Maturin Pentateuch)! Is this because the use of the "plot" of the Mauritius Campaign gives it a paint-by-numbers feel?

Having said that, I suppose I should examine my own feelings more carefully. Would I feel the same way about this book if I had not known about the historical basis behind it?

Steve Ross


From: Steven K Ross
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:03:48 -0600
Subject: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert

So, what is the collective judgment of the group on Lord Clonfert? Is he, as the Norton blurb would have it, merely a "pleasure-seeking dilettante?" Is he just vain and silly, and therefore inconsequential? Or is he something a little deeper, maybe even a little tragic, and someone whose deeds (or attempted deeds) call for our admiration, despite what we may think of their motivation? What exactly IS that motivation, anyway? In sum, does Clonfert have, in any measure, what one of our characters might call "bottom"?

If these subjects have already been "done," as I imagine may be the case, I would appreciate some precis of earlier gunroom discussions and/or pointers to places where they may be found in the archives! Thanks.

----------------------

"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims!" -- DI, p. 67

Steve Ross
Baton Rouge


From: Gerry Strey
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:11:12 -0600
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert

Clonfert has always seemed to me to be the core of TMC, even more than the campaign itself. His self-imposed rivalry with Jack, his endless self-doubts, the fascination his emotional and mental processes have for Stephen, the effects his actions have on the plot--take him away and what would the story be like?

Gerry Strey
Madison, Wisconsin


From: Thistle Farm
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:44:11 EST
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert

Dull Dull Dull, is the answer to that Gerry.

TMC is probably one of my least favorite of the early books, and in fact this was only the second time I read it. Clonfert is never a very sympathetic creature, but watching his repeated failures, and moreso the way Stephen waxes hot and cold about him seem very true to life. Most writers make bad guys clearly bad guys, but POB has Stephen sympathetic to, charmed even, by a man who would do Jack a bad turn if he could (and had in the past done just that). Clonfert is a good picture of the socially insecure, a man never sure what tack to take, but canny enough to know when he's failing and shift tactics.

All in all I found this a more enjoyable read than the first one, probably because the general quality of my reading material has risen so much, and I was able to follow the battles with a little more educated eye.

Sarah


From: Susan Wenger (susanwenger@YAHOO.COM)
Date: Mon Jan 14 2002 - 22:05:20 EST
Subject: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert"

And the Clonfert story would be much weaker without the other side of the coin, Corbett. It's the contrast that tells the story, or balances it at least, I think.


From: Don Seltzer
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 21:02:40 -0500
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert

I wondered when the discussion would finally get around to Clonfert.

With Clonfert, isn't POB exploring further the type of three-way relationship he created in M&C with James Dillon? Aubrey and Clonfert should have so much in common, but Clonfert's need to emulate and compete with Jack turns him into a rival rather than a friend.

I've been toying with the idea that at least part of Clonfert's personality comes from someone POB knew intimately. Consider the following excerpts:

"Stephen, you should know all about Clonfert. He is a countryman of yours, an eminent chap, I dare say in Ireland."

"Sure, it is an Irish title, but Clonfert is as much an Englishman as you are yourself. The family name is Scroggs... Clonfert's grandfather, now, was a mere - [interrupted]"

Much later, Stephen writes in his diary,
"Clonfert is more of an Irishman, with the exacerbated susceptibilities of a subject race, than I had supposed; more indeed than I gave Jack to understand. I find that as a boy he did not attend a great English public school, as did most of his kind I have known; nor did he go early to sea and thereby wash away the barrier... Far from it: he was brought up almost entirely by the servants at Jenkinsville (a desolate region). Squireen foster-parents too for a while, his own being so mad or so disreputable: and he seems to have sucked in the worst of both sides ... an uneasy awareness of his own distinction, a profound uncertainty of its real value, and a conviction that to validate its claims he should be twice as tall as other men .... He has surrounded himself with a strikingly inferior set of officers ... no doubt they provide him with the approval he longs for; but how much can a man of his understanding value their approval?"

And many books later, in TGS:
When they were alone with their coffee Stephen, after a long brooding pause, said, 'Do you remember I once said of Clonfert that for him truth was what he could make others believe? ... I expressed myself badly. What I meant was that if he could induce others to believe what he said, then for him the statement acquired some degree of truth, a reflection of their belief that it was true; and this reflected truth might grow stronger with time and repetition until it became conviction, indistinguishable from ordinary factual truth, or very nearly so.'

Somewhere, I recall reading that Clonfert's grandfather was a furrier. Can anyone help me find the passage? Of course a certain Carl Russ, who emigrated to England, was also a furrier.

Don Seltzer


From: Gerry Strey
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 08:26:20 -0600
Subject: WAS C really POB? Was:Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert

As usual, don, your insight into and knowledge of the canon dazzles.

Gerry Strey
Madison, Wisconsin


From: Steve Ross
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:41:12 -0600
Subject: GROUPREAD TMC: Stephen and British colonialism

Consider the following passage:

[Stephen writing about Mrs. Wogan in his journal, DI p. 131:] "She knows that I am an Irishman, who would wish to see my country independent; and that I abhor all domination, all planting of colonies."

I'll grant that this comes from a later novel than the one now under discussion, and therefore, _sensu stricto_, should not be part of the picture yet. It is also true that in this episode Stephen is being very careful about what and how much he lets Wogan know about him, for his own espionage-related purposes. But this self-description seems consistent with Stephen's views and character throughout the Canon, and, putting aside the disinformation aspect of it, I think Stephen is sincere in saying that he hates "domination" and the "planting of colonies." That is part of the whole picture of why he hates Napoleon and why he does what he does, isn't it? If we agree with all that, then:

What think we of Stephen's activities on behalf of the British in helping them wrest control of Mauritius and La Reunion from the French? Of course, it is all part of the overall campaign to defeat "Buonapartism," and of course, we know how Stephen, in service of that aim, is sometimes forced to do things that he might otherwise not do (ref. recent discussions of ambiguity and moral "gray areas") . . . but is that too simple?

I was moved to ask these questions by S.'s political activities, for instance, the destruction of the tax records (TMC p. 156:

" 'Those are my tax-gatherer's records,' said Stephen, beside him. 'If that does not render us beloved, the Bourbonnais are hard to please.' "

The destruction of the tax records is part of the effort to "Win the Hearts and Minds" of the Mauritians, by presenting the British arrival as a liberation, right? I guess it is believable that such propaganda would have been part of the overall effort; but in reality, as far as the people of Mauritius are concerned (whether that means the "Bourbonnais" colonists or the native population), they were basically exchanging one master for another. And, it being part of imperial policy dating as far back as the Romans to make the empire pay the price of its own governance, I would expect those "tax-gatherer's records" to be resurrected in one form or another, sooner or later.

So what I am asking is this: Was Stephen conscious of betraying his own principles in helping the British extend their empire in this region? The end may justify the means, but do we have any evidence that he was at all conflicted about this (by contrast with his self-torment over other issues, frequently throughout the Canon)? Or shall we just conclude that "Catalan independence may be one thing, but in the world of Aubrey and Maturin it is natural--and morally unproblematical--to expect non-European peoples to be ruled by France, Britain or one of the other colonial powers"?

--------------------

"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims!" -- DI p. 67

Steve Ross
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W


From: Jim Quinn
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:17:29 -0800
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Stephen and British colonialism

Ah, but the trick is to destroy all the records of taxes owed - that makes the folks grateful - but not destroy the records of landowners, so that you can then prepare to tax them yourselves: the price of civilization and all that. Sort of a one-time tax rebate(!)

As for the conflicts within SM, well, he did sign on as a Surgeon/Warrant Officer in (and and active intelligence agent for) the RN and has to do what his duty requires of him. He does from time to time subvert his duties a little - such as by refusing certain pressed people for the ship out of kindness, but that's only in little things, I think.

DAGHDA Jim


From: David Dunn
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:52:20 -0500
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Stephen and British colonialism

IMHO Stephen is the archtypical pragmatist. He knows that the Islands are ruled by the French and he passionately believes that the French rule is evil incarnate. There is little chance that they can cast off the French yoke on their own, and the British yoke is, theoretically at least, softer than the alternative (witness his clearly stated abhorrence of the notion of French "assistance" in freeing the Irish). A successful campaign advances the defeat of Napoleon, moves the islanders a step closer to eventual freedom, and (coincidently?) advances the career of his closest friend.

Clearly, this choice is the lesser of the possible weevils.

DJD


From: HrgSmes@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 17:22:42 EST
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Stephen and British colonialism

Some light on Maturin's feelings on this score is shed in CLARISSA OAKES aka THE TRUELOVE in the course of the campaign against the Melanisian queens opposite number, who is being supported by the French via the rich philosopher -- is it Dutouard -- I speak from memory here -- who Steven observes would not hesitate to spread bloody murder in the name of his wish to set up a Rousseau-ish democracy. Steven, as I recall, tells Jack that he dislikes interfering in the lives of others on general principle, but will allow the Queen to express her love for King George rather than suffer being eaten. I paraphrase, but Steven is essentially opting for the lesser weevil, in the context of ideological wretched excess, of which the worst is Napoleon, and Dutuoard is his stand in.

Best.
HR Greenberg MD ENDIT


From: Steven K Ross
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:50:35 -0600
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert

Susan wrote:

And the Clonfert story would be much weaker without the other side of the coin, Corbett. It's the contrast that tells the story, or balances it at least, I think.

The purpose of introducing these characters, then, was no doubt manifold; but, in addition to exploring the complexity of human motivation, O'Brian presumably intended this as a study in the complications of high command (or "management" if you will); what is even the best commander to do, when his tools are such quirky, fallible human beings, and when they are themselves accustomed to a free hand in ruling their own fiefs?

Steve Ross


From: Susan Wenger (susanwenger@YAHOO.COM)
Date: Tue Jan 15 2002 - 14:14:16 EST
Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert

Very nicely put. It sure helps that Jack Aubrey was made acting Commodore for a while there
: }


From: Mal Marchant
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:13:48 +0800
Subject: Groupread: TMC: The Forgotten Man Mk I

When the Boadicea first arrives in Simons Bay from England, and Jack is about to cross to the flagship, he notices that the boat's crew is incomplete.

Nine guns she fired, the reply due to a captain, and after the ninth the Boadicea's signal-midshipman, young Weatherall, piped, 'Flag signalling, sir." Then his voice broke to a harsh bass as he went on, 'Captain repair aboard flag.'

"Acknowledge, ' said Jack. "Lower away the gig. Where's my coxswain? Pass the word for my coxswain.'

'I am sorry, sir,' said Johnson, blushing. ' Moon is drunk'

'Damn him,' said Jack 'Crompton, jump into the gig. Mr Hill are these all my papers? Every last one?'....................................snip............................... ...................................................................

"Boat ahoy?' asked the Raisonable.

'Boadicea,' replied the acting coxswain in a voice of brass; and then more quietly he said, 'Rowed of all'. The gig kissed against the tall flank of the flagship, the sideboys ran down with their scarlet man-ropes, the bosun started his call, and Jack was piped aboard. ................

And that's it for poor old Crompton! PO'B makes him take over at a moment's notice, do the job he's thrust into, and then lets him disappear without trace. Even the meticulous Mr Brown gnaws him and treats him with 'tempt (in my copy of PASC, at any rate). No mention of him replacing the unreliable Moon, and absolutely no chance at all of him hanging onto the job after Big Beautiful Barrett Bonden bounces back on board!

"Ready, Aye, Ready" that's the motto and that's the spirit. Do your duty and fail at your peril. If you can't take a joke you should never have joined.

And it's not just O'Brien and Brown, Forester has a similar situation but he doesn't even bother to give the poor bugger a name. I'm prepared to bet that it was a cousin of Crompton's that was handed a lead-line and thrust out onto the chains when, I think it was, the Sutherland was creeping along the coast and everyone else on board was enjoying themselves bombarding the column of Italian conscripts. At least Horny had the decency to savage someone when, eventually, long after they had turned away from the shore, he became aware of the repeated chant, 'No bottom, no bottom on this line'.

Listmates lets hear it for the Cromptons of the canon. Fill your glasses, the toast is "The Forgotten Men"

Mal
Derelict Goldminer
31°02'21.9"S 121°36'53.9"E (GDA)
GMT +08:00


From: Vanessa Brown
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 01:19:40 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC: The Forgotten Man Mk I

Listmates lets hear it for the Cromptons of the canon. Fill your glasses, the toast is "The Forgotten Men"

In bumpers!

Vanessa, somewhat resigned to being a Crompton, in the Grand Scheme of Things


From: Mal Marchant
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:49:36 +0800
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC: The Forgotten Man Mk I

Come, come, Nessie, how can that be so? Not only are you a member of "The List That Knows All", but you also belong to "The List That Never Forgets"

Mal
Derelict Goldminer
31°02'21.9"S 121°36'53.9"E (GDA)
GMT +08:00


From: Peter Mackay
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 17:35:02 +1100
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC: The Forgotten Man Mk I

Let us drink to the Unknown Sailors of Naval Fiction!


From: Susan Wenger (susanwenger@YAHOO.COM)
Date: Wed Jan 16 2002 - 19:46:49 EST
GroupRead:TMC:humor

How deftly POB plies his wit. Near the end of "The Mauritius Command," one of the LESS humorous books in the canon once past Chapter One: Jack is ebullient at the news of his son, everyone is congratulating him at dinner, and Stephen's thoughts have wandered during the course of Jack's cheerful flow.

"When the long meal was over, when the King, Mrs Aubrey and young Stupor Mundi had been drunk in bumpers of luke-warm port . . . "

I LOVE it. Young Stupor Mundi. Not another word about little George, but that "young Stupor Mundi" says it all for Stephen's mood.

- Susan


From: Marian Van Til
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:31:32 -0500
Subject: POB and Middlemarch (was: RE: [POB] GroupRead:TMC:humor)

Funny you should bring this up right now, Susan. I just this morning finished reading George Eliot's *Middlemarch.* The only baby born in this lengthy book to a major character (or more accurately, the sister of a major character) is referred to as "the infantine Bouddha" (his parents being his most avid worshippers). Eventually we learn the "Bouddha's" name is Arther.

Incidentally, though *Middlemarch* takes place ca. 1830 (written 1880), it depicts the lives of rural Englishmen and -women very much like Jack and Sophie -- and the vast and complex impingements of class and social mores, and the behavior and attitudes that result. It's very interesting to read it in light of characters/time/cultural setting of the canon.

Marian


From: Mary Arndt
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:43:36 -0500
Subject: Group Read TMC; grains of Paradise

The guineaman, Intrepid Fox, that the Boadicea retook just late enough in the day to be salvage was loaded with goodies including "grains of Paradise.
Does anyone know what this might be?

Mary A


From: Gerry Strey
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:20:21 -0600
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC; grains of Paradise

Google turned up an informative site. Grains of paradise are the seeds of aframomum melegueta, a plant of the ginger family found in West Africa. They have a hot and spicy flavor and were used as a pepper substitute before the development of sea routes to India made black pepper less expensive. At one time used for beer flavoring, the seed is still used in North African cooking.

Gerry Strey
Madison, Wisconsin


From: Robert Henrickson
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:50:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC; grains of Paradise

One of the varieties of beer Sam Adams produced, a couple years ago anyway, included grains of paradise.

RCH
*******************************************************************
http://home.att.net/~r.c.henrickson Personal webpage
http://home.att.net/~gordion Gordion: Archaeological Research

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes.

H. Thoreau: Walden


From: Alec O'Flaherty
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:06:53 +0000
Subject: Clonfert,Ballinasloe and St Brendan

Catching up on the Clonfert thread.

Just doing a bit of googling this Sunday morning- and refreshing memories from my distant school days of the various monastries founded around the county.

CLONFERT (yes clonfert) was founded by St Brendan. Of Brendan voyage fame. Betya POB had done some research on Brendan,Stephen specifically mentions him.

Was the use of the name 'Clonfert' a mini tribute to the Voyager?

Also the nearest 'large' town to 'Clonfert' would be Ballinasloe 10 miles from the cathedral. Stephen seems to have been there(Ballinasloe.

Maybe no connection,but thought I'd mention it.

alec-from a demesne west of the Curragh of Kildare.

further information:-

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02758c.htm

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~clonfert/history.htm


From: Jean A
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:04:36 EST
Subject: Re: Clonfert, St. Brendan

Alec and I are of one mind!

He must have missed my "Clonfert" post of a couple of weeks ago which contained the same information about St. Brendan the Navagator, the cathedral at Clonfert, and its proximity to Ballinasloe!

As for Brendan's boat, the adventurer, Tim Severin, back in the seventies, had a replica built from the specifications in Brendan's "Navagatio", in Kerry, where the original was launched.
The voyage to, ultimately, Newfoundland, was chronicled in Severin's book, "The Brendan Voyage", whicn is familiar to some on the list.
It was also featured in an issue of National Geographic Magazine, and, I believe, a tv special.

A marvelous adventure!

Jean A.


From: Steve Ross
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:43:00 -0600
Subject: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags; ship timber; imagery)

It looks as if I have gained something of a reputation as the old stick-in-the-mud, plodding along with my dog-eared POB volumes, while the rest of the gang chats it up at the bar! I guess I am going to have to do something about that . . . from now on, no holding back; I will dash off one-liners willy-nilly!

But first, and before we move on to Desolation Island, I do have a couple of nagging questions apropos of TMC:

1. p. 281: Jack says, "Mr Collins, to Otter and Staunch: proceed to sea immediately and enemy cruising east-north-east." This is just one example of something I have been curious about for a while. How many flags would the commodore's ship have to run up to convey this much information? I assume both of the ships addressed would be denoted by their numbers (how many flags for a ship's number?); then at least one or two for the "proceed to sea" part, another one for enemy cruising, and a couple more for the direction. There are sometimes examples of even more complex sets of signals, aren't there? How many flags, total, could a flagship (good name for it!) carry at once, and still expect to be understood? Finally: I know the midshipmen had telescopes, but how close did they have to be in order to discern all of this (i.e., what was the maximum distance for effective communication)?

2. p. 301: Back on La Reunion and refitting for another confrontation with the French, Jack is represented as saying, "Farquhar, my good fellow, be so good as to cut all the tallest trees on the island and set all the carpenters to work directly. The Africaine must have masts by dawn on Thursday at the latest." I wondered about the suitability of freshly-cut timber for marine construction. Of course this is an emergency situation, and they have to use whatever they can get. But am I right in assuming that, wherever possible, they preferred to use dry or seasoned wood? If a ship rigged a mast out of green lumber like this, would it have to be replaced when and if they gained access to a well-stocked yard?

[if those last two questions don't seem ignorant to you, I have one coming after this post that will really take the cake!]

3. Reading through the Group Read archive I find there has been some discussion of this, but I have to get my own word in:

Several readers have commented on the comedy in the opening section of TMC; in addition to the nods and winks at "Alice," there is Mrs. Williams refusing to set the clock going for fear of wearing it out, Jack being at a loss in the presence of his children, etc. etc. But this chapter is not merely slapstick. POB fills this section with images of frustration and infertility (the cow refusing the bull, as has already been noted; likewise Jack's inability to produce much of worth from his garden) . . . to add to all this, I like the image of the beehives devoid of honey, and Jack saying, "it must be more than a month since I was stung." In addition, the image of the clock at a standstill seems to round out the feeling: Rather than a "pure paradise" as he expected, Jack's life since his marriage, at least when he is on shore, is on hold. No great insights here, I'm afraid, since Jack's desire to go to sea again is explicit throughout . . . but I just wanted to point out the more melancholy aspects of these humorous pages.

BTW, I'm not sure I agree with Jerry's comment that Stephen shows his "innumeracy" when he cites the "law of averages" to reassure Jack as to the gender of his next child (p. 31); this may well be the case, but at least my initial impression was that Stephen was well aware of the fallacy of this argument. He used it anyway, to console a friend who was in bad need of consolation. Doesn't that fit Stephen's character, and the nature of their friendship?

--------------------
"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims." -- DI p. 67

Steve Ross
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W


From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:06:11 EST
Subject: Re: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags; ship timber; imagery)

Great questions Steve- I believe that just about this period, an Englishman invented a set of code flags that expressed common phrases- to shorten number of flags- It seems that Nelson's exhortation at Trafalgar was changed (and improved) by suggestions to shorten message(flags) by changing phrasing.

Blatherin' John B


From: Martin
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 20:18:14 -0000
Subject: Re: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags; ship timber; imagery)

Home Popham produced a comprehensive signal book about 1807 IIRC. The example usually given of how comprehensive is that with a very small number of hoists you can send the signal "YOUR SISTER MARRIED TO A LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY".

Nelson's signal Lt suggested that he change "CONFIDES" from his original signal to "EXPECTS" as the latter was in the book whereas the former would have to be spelled out letter by letter.

Martin @ home:
50° 44' 58" N
1° 58' 35" W


From: Martin
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 19:10:59 -0000p> Steve wrote:

Several readers have commented on the comedy in the opening section of TMC; in addition to the nods and winks at "Alice," there is Mrs. Williams refusing to set the clock going for fear of wearing it out,

I have mentioned before that I think this argument is not merely mean-spirited as we might expect from Mrs Williams but just plain wrong. I believe that in constant use parts like clockwork "work- harden" which reduces wear. One of POB's short stories was about an obsessive clockmaker and I believe that his research for that story, or his knowledge of the subject, may have been sufficient to know this.

Of course I'm thinking back to a physics lesson nearly 30 years ago here so there might be something more to the story...

Martin @ home:
50° 44' 58" N
1° 58' 35" W


From: Jim Quinn
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:44:24 -0800
Subject: Re: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags; ship timber; imagery)

Steve Ross asked:

about the suitability of freshly-cut timber for marine construction. Of course this is an emergency situation, and they have to use whatever they can get. But am I right in assuming that, wherever possible, they preferred to use dry or seasoned wood? If a ship rigged a mast out of green lumber like this, would it have to be replaced when and if they gained access to a well-stocked yard?

While no expert, I recall reading that masts and spars would ideally be seasoned by soaking in a pond set aside near a shipyard for this purpose. So while the freshcut timber would be used in an emergency, i woudl think that it would be replaced as soon as it could reasonably be done.

DAGHDA Jim


From: Gerry Strey
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:20:23 -0600
Subject: Mrs. Stingy:WasRe: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags; ship timber; imagery)

Yes, Mrs. Williams is always thinking how to save money and wear-and-tear on her belongings. I recall in M&C her telling her butler not to close the curtains with his hand, as it's so bad for them. And in TMC Stephen muses that perhaps she was really meant by nature to be managing on 200 pounds a year. Her focus isn't even on the trees; it's on single leaves, and she doesn't even know there is a wood.

Loathesome as she is, Mrs. Williams is a great comic character.

Gerry Strey
Madison, Wisconsin


From: Jim Quinn
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:03:56 -0800
Subject: Re: A tear for poor Mrs. W. (was Mrs. Stingy, &c)

Gerry Strey wrote:

And in TMC Stephen muses that perhaps she was really meant by nature to be managing on 200 pounds a year. Her focus isn't even on the trees; it's on single leaves, and she doesn't even know there is a wood.

Loathesome as she is, Mrs. Williams is a great comic character.

Comic, sure; tragic, maybe.

I am prolly going to misremember badly here, but in some respects I felt sympathy for the Dreaded Mrs. Williams. IIRC, in PC she supervised a very Haut-Austen-like fortune of ten thousand pounds for her daughters (was it 1K for EACH of them?). Through some misadventure (swindle? imbezzlement?) she lost it and Mapes too. Her presence in Jack's home is through necessity. We smile at JA's financial ups and down ("Jack Ashore"), but at least he has the means through his career to rebuild his fortune. Mrs. Williams does not (or not at that point). In the most ironic way, she has been reduced to what Diana's status was at the beginning of PC: a poor relation with no prospects. Her ability to manage a household on 200 pounds a year is no mean feat, as we have also seen in some of the Austen canon.

I stand tall, awaiting incoming fire.

DAGHDA Jim (Not saying I liked her, but she had her story, too)


From: Gerry Strey
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:55:50 -0600
Subject: Re: A tear for poor Mrs. W. (was Mrs. Stingy, &c)

Jim, you are one big-hearted gentleman, but I must respectfully disagree with you about Mrs. Williams in her penury. Stephen thinks that she doesn't really comprehend her misfortune, and is actually happy in her interfering management of her daughter's household (interfering mismanagement, that is). Saving fivepence to her is as satisfying as saving ten pounds would have been in her previous condition. And while she managed to lose the 10000 pounds that should have been Sophie's dowry, she didn't lose Mapes. She can't afford to live there and has to rent it out, but it's still hers. Eventually Jack, in one of his wealthy periods, pays off the mortgages on it, but she prefers to live with Sophy rather than return to it.

I think her effect on her family is the only tragedy. While she delights in feeling ill-used, she is really a contented woman in her narrow, crabbed way. At least until her belated love affair, that is.

Gerry Strey
Madison, Wisconsin


From: Marian Van Til
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 12:51:56 -0500
Subject: Re: A tear for poor Mrs. W. (was Mrs. Stingy, &c)

I've always rather regretted that POB didn't leave at least a small hint as to the kind of man she married, he having been Sophie's father, and all. I can't recall if we ever learn what caused his presumably early death. Mrs. Williams no doubt (unknowingly) played a role.

Marian


From: Martin
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 19:08:49 -0000
Subject: Re: A tear for poor Mrs. W. (was Mrs. Stingy, &c)

I still think he ran away to sea and ended his days in the South Pacific.

See: http://mat.gsia.cmu.edu/POB/JUN2700/0550.html

and: http://mat.gsia.cmu.edu/POB/JUN2700/0551.html

Martin @ home:
50° 44' 58" N
1° 58' 35" W


From: William Nyden
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:44:35 -0800
Subject: Re: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags; ship timber; imagery)

Steve Ross wrote:

1. p. 281: Jack says, "Mr Collins, to Otter and Staunch: proceed to sea immediately and enemy cruising east-north-east." This is just one example of something I have been curious about for a while. How many flags would the commodore's ship have to run up to convey this much information? I assume both of the ships addressed would be denoted by their numbers (how many flags for a ship's number?); then at least one or two for the "proceed to sea" part, another one for enemy cruising, and a couple more for the direction. There are sometimes examples of even more complex sets of signals, aren't there? How many flags, total, could a flagship (good name for it!) carry at once, and still expect to be understood? Finally: I know the midshipmen had telescopes, but how close did they have to be in order to discern all of this (i.e., what was the maximum distance for effective communication)?

See my "Make a signal page" at http://www.maturin.org/popham.cgi - note that this is a work-in-progress, and neither my lexicon nor the coding are complete.

The signal would require three halyards: the first would have the six number flags representing the numbers of Otter and Staunch. The second would also be six flags, four numbers representing the phrase "proceed to sea immediately" surrounded by the start and end flags. The third might be the #1 (enemy in sight) , or it might be a Popham code representing "enemy cruising", followed by a code for ENE, surrounded by the start and end flags.

Bill Nyden
a Rose by another name
37° 25' 15" N 122° 04' 57" W
======================================================
William Nyden | CAD Systems Engineer
Space Systems/Loral | nyden@ssd.loral.com
3825 Fabian Way, Z-02 | ph (650) 852-4333
Palo Alto, CA 94303 USA | fax (650) 852-5207

"Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction after all, has to make sense."
- Mark Twain

http://www.maturin.org/
http://www.Calif-Sport-Divers.org/
http://www.HMSSurprise.org/


From: Susan Wenger (susanwenger@YAHOO.COM)
Date: Tue Feb 05 2002 - 09:34:56 EST
Subject: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags)

I have a POB discussion group at Yahoogroups. Someone sent in a perfect picture to answer this question, but I don't know how to pick it up and re-transmit it. It is a picture of Nelson's "Victory" flying the signal "England expects every man will do his duty," and it's a beautiful and inspiring picture. If someone can tell me how to re-post it, I'll do that - otherwise, if you want to see it, I think you have to open a yahoo account and join the Patrick O'Brian club to see it.

To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please visit http://www.sea-room.com


From: Martin (martin_sj_watts@LINEONE.NET)
Date: Tue Feb 05 2002 - 14:03:46 EST
Subject: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags)

If this is "Victory" flying the whole signal at once it is not the way it would have been done at the time. The whole signal took twelve "lifts", all from the mizzen mast.

The complete signal is shown on the http://www.aboutnelson.co.uk web site.
See: http://www.aboutnelson.co.uk/england%20expcts.htm

The following passage is quoted from the site:

"Because it is normal today to see the whole signal flying at one time from the various masts and yards of the Victory - there is a misconception that this is how it would have looked when originally flown.

In fact the flag lockers were located at the back of the poop deck, and the signals would have been made using the mizzen mast only.

The signal itself required twelve "lifts" - for the eight full words and the four letters that spelt out the word "duty".

The signalling team would have been made up of a Signal Lieutenant (Pasco) assisted by up to four midshipmen and six seamen.

According to Admiral Smyth's "Sailor's Word Book" - "it may be observed that signal officers of these days became the elite of the Navy, Signal Officer being then a proud term of distinction" "

Martin @ home:
50° 44' 58" N
1° 58' 35" W


From: Don Seltzer (dseltzer@DRAPER.COM)
Date: Tue Feb 05 2002 - 14:22:54 EST
Subject: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags)

Martin wrote:

If this is "Victory" flying the whole signal at once it is not the way it would have been done at the time. The whole signal took twelve "lifts", all from the mizzen mast.

I don't think that the website you quote is correct. I believe that signals such as this were hoisted simultaneously, using all available masts, yardarms, etc.

Signals from the flagship were generally "repeated" by each of the other ships, to confirm that they were received. If the twelve hoists were done individually, the whole process might have taken half an hour!

Don Seltzer


From: Les Hellawell
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 20:43:20 -0000
Subject: Re: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags)

I am not sure if this answers the question but here is a quote from "Trafalgar The Nelson Touch" by David Howarth, copyright 1969.

{quote} Mr Pascoe I wish to to say to the fleet, "England confides that every man will do his duty." You must be quick, for I have one more to make, which is for close action.' Pascoe asked to be allowed to use 'expects' instead of 'confides' because 'expects' was in Popham's signal book, but 'confides' would have to be spelt. 'That will do, Pascoe, make it directly.' Nelson said. And at 11.35 the most famous battle signal ever made was hoisted to the yards and mastheads of the Victory.

[a few sentences later]

Collingwood, seeing the flags, said: 'I wish Nelson would stop signalling. We know what to do'
{unquote}

Les Hellawell

Greetings from YORKSHIRE - White Rose County


From: Roger Marsh
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 17:46:13 -0000
Subject: Re: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags)

I have rather lost track of who posted what (e.g., Don Seltzer , Martin , Les Hellawell). However, I disagree that: "If this is "Victory" flying the whole signal at once it is not the way it would have been done at the time. The whole signal took twelve "lifts", all from the mizzen mast."

And also with our friend "England Expects", usually a very knowledgeable source, whose website, the "About Nelson" one, says "Because it is normal today to see the whole signal flying at one time from the various masts and yards of the Victory - there is a misconception that this is how it would have looked when originally flown. In fact the flag lockers were located at the back of the poop deck, and the signals would have been made using the mizzen mast only." I'll ask him what his sources are.

I do nevertheless agree with the posting which said that that: "I don't think that the website you quote is correct. I believe that signals such as this were hoisted simultaneously, using all available masts, yardarms, etc" - or that, if not always all simultaneously, then all least in a couple of multiple hoists.

Lavery cites the large number of flag halliards needed and fitted, particularly to a flagship, stating that the "Royal George" in 1794 had fifteen per side not counting the ensign halliards, on all masts, to trucks (mastheads), crosstrees and yardarms, from decks and tops, utilising 973 fathoms of rope, 5,838 ft of signal halliard. This would enable a variety of hoists to be displayed simultaneously. Of course, the line of sight would be important, to read signals, and the relaying frigates would often be absolutely necessary to provide a different angle from that formed by the flagship with other vessels of the line and to transmit the signal up and down the line.

Regards,

Roger Marsh


From: Ladyshrike@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 23:21:33 EST
Subject: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns

From page 109 of the Norton edition:

"Captain Pym had set up a splendid array of bottles and cakes in his cabin, and as Jack lowered a Bath bun whose specific gravity somewhat exceeded that of platinum..."

At first I thought this was a serious anachronism, that platinum was a recent discovery, but it turns out it was discovered in 1735 by Julius Scaliger in Italy. The things you learn...

I googled a little for the specific gravity of platinum at

http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/Pt.html

and it's not given, but the melting point is 1772°C. Guess I won't be trying to melt any very soon.

But what is a Bath bun? I know I've probably made bread that would qualify for "Bath bread" on the platinum scale, but is a Bath bun still available as such?

Alice


From: Edmund Burton
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 23:23:07 -0600
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns

The specific gravity of platinum is 21, the heaviest known. The Bath bun, then, is heavier than the heaviest substance known to science.

Bath bun--appears to be an early form of fruitcake:
Definition: Said to have originated in the English town of Bath in the 18th century, this sugar-coated yeast bun is studded with candied fruit and currants or golden raisins.

From the Food Network web page:
http://www.foodtv.com/terms/tt-r2/0,4474,286,00.html


From: Martin
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 08:32:22 -0000
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns

Edmund wrote:

The specific gravity of platinum is 21, the heaviest known. The Bath bun, then, is heavier than the heaviest substance known to science.

I thought Osmium was higher. I've just found a reference to it being 22.61. It was discovered in 1803 by Smithson Tenant and named from the Greek "osme", odour. Some of the transuranic elements may have higher specific gravities as one of the references said "the heaviest natural metal on earth".

Martin @ home:
50° 44' 58" N
1° 58' 35" W


From: Edmund Burton
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:23:08 -0600
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns

I believe you are correct, sir, and since osmium was the only known substance heavier than platinum at the time, the bun must have been made of pure osmium. Jack must have had good teeth and a cast-iron stomach.

EB


From: Ladyshrike@AOL.COM
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 06:42:09 EST
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns

ekburton@SWBELL.NET writes:

Bath bun--appears to be an early form of fruitcake:
Definition: Said to have originated in the English town of Bath in the 18th century, this sugar-coated yeast bun is studded with candied fruit and currants or golden raisins.

Yes, it does seem to be a hybrid fruitcake X hot crossed bun. I can see where they just might exceed the specific gravity of many things. From: http://www.angliatv.com/sundaymorning/sun180201.html

John Eley's Recipe: Bath Buns
The invention of a certain Dr. Oliver of Bath who was responsible for the Bath Oliver biscuit!

16oz/450g strong plain flour
1 sachet quick rise yeast
1 teaspoon sugar
4oz/100g butter
3oz/75g caster sugar
2 eggs
2oz/50g chopped mixed peel
2oz/50g crushed sugar lumps (for topping)
1 egg for glazing

Make sure all the ingredients are at room temperature. Mix all the dry ingredients together. Beat the eggs and butter together. Warm the milk. Gradually mix everything together and form dough. Knead for five minutes. Divide the dough and form into small buns - they'll rise in a moment. Brush with glaze and sprinkle with crushed sugar cubes. Allow to rise for 45 minutes. Place in the oven set at 350f, 180c. gas 5 for 30 minutes. Serve warm with butter!

Alice


From: Helen Connor
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:41:47 +1100
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns

Bath bun sounds like your basic finger bun, minus the strip of pink buttery icing.

A bun is generally not as serious as a cake. In American terms, try thinking 'sweet roll'.

and here's a recipe:
http://www.britannia.com/cooking/recipes/bathbuns.html

Can't find a finger bun recipe for love or money, but if you Google for 'em you'll find a lot of primary school websites listing them as canteen fodder.

H
cultural interpreter


From: Larry & Wanda Finch
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 10:34:06 -0500
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns

A Bath Bun is a sweet yeast bun. According to Elizabeth David ("English Bread and Yeast Cookery"):

"Bath buns, hot cross buns, spice buns, penny buns, Chelsea buns, currant buns -- all these 'small, soft plump, sweet, fermented' cakes are English institutions. Very stodgy ones, too, if you buy them from the bakeries, and to be avoided by anyone mindful of their weight and, in particular, of the obesity problems of so many of today's English children. Just occasionally, though, it is agreeable to be able to bake some of these old English specialties at home, to discover what they were really like -- how much lighter, how much more character and individuality they had than the stereotyped products turned out by the commercial bakeries." She quotes Mistress Margaret Dods, "The Cook and Housewife's Manual," 4th edn, 1829 (first published 1826):

"These Bath-buns are almost the same preparation as the Brioche cakes so much eaten and talked of in Paris".

She discusses at length "real" Bath buns and those sold in London, which are heavy and tasteless, and probably what POB was referring to.

She then provides a recipe for the real thing from Elizabeth Raffald, "The Experienced English Housekeeper," first published in 1769. "Rub half a pound of butter into a pound of flour, and one spoonful of good barm, warm some cream, and make it into a light paste, set it on the fire to rise, when you make them up take four ounces of caraway comfits, work part of them in, and strew the rest on the top, make them into a round cake, the size of a French roll, and bake them on sheet tins, and send them in hot for breakfast."

Wanda has been known to make them, and they are a real treat. I can post her more modern recipe if anyone wants to try it.

Larry


From: Bob Kegel
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:46:12 -0800
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns

Larry wrote"

"These Bath-buns are almost the same preparation as the Brioche cakes so much eaten and talked of in Paris".

This may explain Jack's dissatisfaction. Shortly before "...his French cook had gone ashore with Bretonniere to join the other prisoners of war, and never more would there be brioche for breakfast."

Bob Kegel
46°59'18.661"N 123°49'29.827"W


From: Rosemary Davis
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:16:33 -0500
Subject: Bath buns

Bob, you've caught the essence of that moment; Bath buns/brioche are not supposed to be heavy (at least, the ones I've eaten were not), hence Jack's putting it down.


From: Lois Anne du Toit
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:49:48 -0000
Subject: Groupread TMC: a comment and a question - TINY SPOILER

References to Norton H/c ed.

The question first:

p35: "pure as the Carlotta" (of hitting a note in music): can anyone explain what Carlotta is referred to, please?

Now for the comment: it's clear that both Jack and Sophie find married life less than satisfactory. It seems that there has been a withdrawal of some kind on Sophie's part which one might, at first, attribute to a certain degree of sexual frigidity (as noted in Stephen's thoughts about her). But on closer reading of the opening of the book, it becomes clear that poor Sophie can hardly feel convinced of her worth as wife and mother as:
1. Jack is clearly disappointed that the twins are girls
2. Mrs Williams has contrived to lose Sophie's dowry, thus depriving Jack of financial help he might, in Sophie's mind, regard as rightfully his due.
3. Jack is clearly longing to be at sea (he thinks she doesn't know of his staring at the sea with his telescope but she does: p 36).

She can hardly be blamed for thinking herself a miserable failure on counts 1 and 2 alone, though she is sympathetic to Jack's wish to be at sea. And then there's the fact that, thanks to Sophie, Jack has been saddled with Mrs Williams and all her works and pomps.

Jack is not the type to be sensitive to all this and reassuring about it: so it's hardly surprising that he feels a distance has arisen between himself and Sophie, quite apart from any sexual incompatibilities.

London Lois, painfully aware of not having expressed this very well but hoping something of the idea came across

51° 28' 50" N 000° 10' 53" W

Lois Anne du Toit
lois@glomas.com

"Man is the only animal that both laughs and weeps for man alone is struck by the difference between what things are and what they ought to be."
(William Hazlitt)


From: Charles Munoz
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:44:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Groupread TMC: a comment and a question - TINY SPOILER

Lois Anne du Toit at Lois.Du.Toit@GLOMAS.COM wrote:

p35: "pure as the Carlotta" (of hitting a note in music): can anyone explain what Carlotta is referred to, please?

I think, I dare say, maybe...

well, there was this German feller named Goethe, as in the poem that begins..."I have a bookcase, wch is what/Many a better man has not./There are no books inside, for books/I am afraid, wd spoil its looks./But I've three busts, all second hand/Upon the top. You understand/I cd not put them underneath./Shake. Mulleary, and Goethe." (By Samuel Hoffenstein?)

Anyhow, Goethe wrote a sorrowful soulful sorrowful romantic sorrowful novel in the late 18th century about Young Werther. Who killed himself for love, and so started a wave of suicides in Germany.

He was in love with this pure, pure, horribly pure lady named Charlotte. Or Lotte. Or Carlotta, depending on your language. In opera, of course, Carlotta.

Pure! Damn pure, she. And she was in an opera that the famous Phantom of the Op used to enjoy...but that was later.

Charlezzzzz, who may be wrong about Carlotta, but who is vy pure himself


From: Gene Halaburt
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:15:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Groupread TMC: a comment and a question - TINY SPOILER

p35: "pure as the Carlotta" (of hitting a note in music):

Jack is speaking of the long-lived sister of the astronomer, Sir William Herschel, Caroline Lucretia Herschel (1750-1848), a fascinating character. For more on her, see:

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Herschel_Caroline.html

Regarding "Carlotta" - could it be a typo or mis-pronunciation of "carlotte"? According to Littré this was the commonly used term for "courlis" ("courlieu"), our "curlew" (any of various largely brownish chiefly migratory birds ("especially genus Numenius) having long legs and a long slender down-curved bill and related to the sandpipers and snipes").

Gene
40° 46' N 111° 58' W


From: Mary S
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:13:34 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread TMC: a comment and a question - TINY SPOILER

I don't think it was Charlotte in WERTHER (pace Charles). I think it must have been a real singer. But Google let me down. All I can find is the fictional diva Carlotta from PHANTOM (hello again, Mme!) and the opera =dancer= Carlotta Grisi.

The First Mate says he read the novel of the PHANTOM as a kid and was mystified by one character, a mysterious "Persian" who keeps hanging around. He misread it as "Parisian" and thought, "why is this name for this guy so significant? Everybody else in the story is a Parisian too!"

Reminded me of my college French class where we read "Adolphe" by Constant, and there's a "belle Polonaise" in it. One of my classmates asked, "Please, Madame, I can't figure out how this Polynesian girl got into it."

Deeply, obstinately ignorant, self-opinionated, and ill-informed,

Mary S
35° 58' 11" N
86° 48' 57" W


From: John Finneran
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:11:10 -0800
Subject: GRP: TMC: The New Beginning

What struck me the most during my re-read of The Mauritius Command was the extent to which it confirmed the observation by several other lissuns that the first three books formed a sort of trilogy; TMC was the first book outside this trilogy, and, as such, it formed a new beginning that laid the framework for the rest of the series to come.

All the books in the Aubrey-Maturin series are at once self-contained and part of the larger series, with the two tendencies predominating to greater and lesser extents differently in the differnt books. I think we can see this most clearly in the endings, which we may consider as "open" (i.e., not finishing up, but dangling potentialities before us, the end as beginning) or "closed" (showing some sort of resolution, the ending as ending).

Master and Commander I would call a moderately open ending:

"Captain Aubrey: it is no small pleasure to me to receive the commands of the court I have the honor to preside at, that in delivering to you your sword, I should congratulate you upon its being restored by both friend and foe alike; hoping ere long you will be called upon to draw it once more in the honourable defence of your country."

Not bad as an ending, but the dominant tendency is to beckon towards the future, when Captain Aubrey shall take up his sword once again.

Post Captain:

"Jack sent the decanter round, desiring them to fill up to the brim; and raising his glass he said, 'Gentlemen, I give you a toast. I beg you will drink Sophia.'

"'Sophia!' cried the Spanish captains, holding up their glasses.

"'Sophie,' said Stephen. 'God bless her.'"

Now this is primarily a closed, resolving sort of an ending, and Stephen's mention of Sophie recalls the ship from M&C, thus nicely wrapping up the series at two books, had PO'B chosen to end the saga here.

H.M.S. Surprise:

"Heneage, I am so very much obliged to you, so deeply obliged. Now I have but to run Sophie and my treasure home, and the future is pure paradise."

This is the most closed of the three endings, the "happily ever after" ending, and note how it builds on the ending for PC; once more Jack is to go to Sophie, but now more decisively and permanently, and the trilogy is nicely wrapped up;

except...

well, it's not 100% wrapped up, for the ending's not completely closed, after all; for, it's a resolution, all right, but not one that rings completely true, for we, the readers, must think, Yes, very nice, indeed, but how likely is this to be completely true? Jack may be expecting Paradise, but has he forgotten the serpent (which appeared as an image earlier in HMSS)?

All of which sets the stage for TMC.

And TMC's ending is unambiguously open, clearly pointing towards future books to come:

"'I hereby request and require Captain Aubrey to repair aboard the Boadicea as soon as he has finished his dinner, there to receive my despatches for the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty and to convey them to Whitehall with all the diligence in his power. And to this, gentlemen' -- raising his glass -- 'I will append a toast: let us all fill up to the brim, gunwales under, and drink to England, home and beauty, and may Lucky Jack Aubrey reach 'em with fair winds and flowing sheets every mile of the way.'"

Note as well how similar this ending is to M & C's ending (and to PC's to a lesser extent ), which highlights TMC's role as the "second M & C", that is, the second beginning.

TMC's beginning sentence is also very similar to M&C's.

Thus M & C: "The music-room in the Governor's House at Port Mahon, a tall, handsome, pillared octagon, was filled with the triumphant first movement of Locatelli's C major quartet." and TMC: "Captain Aubrey of the Royal Navy lived in a part of Hampshire well supplied with sea-officers, some of whom had reached flag-rank in Rodney's day while others were still waiting for their first command."

Both sentences begin with a noun (music-room, Captain Aubrey), followed by a prepositional phrase (in the Governor's House, of the Royal Navy), a verb in the passive voice (was filled, lived), and a simple direct object (movement, part), which is elaborately modified by a roccoco combination of adjectives and further prepositional phrases (triumpant, first, of Locattelli's C major quartet; of Hampshire (modifying phrase #1) well supplied (#2) with sea-officers (#3), some of whom had reached flag-rank (#4) in Rodney's day (#5) while others were still waiting (#6) for their first command (#7)).

Further similarities between M&C and TMC:

* Both books are heavily based on actual historical events.
* Both begin with Jack, who quickly encounters Stephen.
* As Don Seltzer pointed out: "With Clonfert, isn't POB exploring further the type of three-way relationship he created in M&C with James Dillon?"
(He is indeed, Don.)
*Even the titles are similar (Commander, Command; Master, Mauritius).

And what do the characters think of this new beginning? -- though first I suppose I should explain the premise of my question:

We might ask: just what do the characters do between books?

In one sense, we might answer: they go on living just as before, only without the camera on them, and when the books resume, they're never the wiser, and just go on living their normal lives utterly unaware whether they're in a book or not.

In another sense, we might answer: nothing. They don't exist outside the books, save as transitory phantasamata inside the brain of a single man, where they are mixed among many another thought.

So what are the characters' reactions to the new beginning?

They are GRATEFUL.

Consider Jack: when Stephen first sees him: "with a shock the Doctor saw not only that look of anxiety but also the marks of age and unhappiness. Stephen Maturin had thought of Aubrey as powerful resilient cheerful youth itself for so long that this change and the slow, weary motion as the distant figure closed the instrument and stood up, his hand pressed to an old wound on his back, were unusually distressing." (p. 17)

I should note that all the characters are in a certain sense PO'B himself, since they are all products of his imagination, but I see Stephen as mainly his conscious self, his ego if you will, and Jack as a certain repressed conception within PO'B's imagination that appears repeatedly within his fiction and eventually comes to co-exist permanently and equally with his conscious self. This repressed conception of "powerful resilient cheerful youth" is at once Michael Russ O'Brien, PO'B's older brother, living once again; it is James Aislabie (J.A.), who rises from the dead in PO'B's short story "The Last Pool"; it is Joseph Aubrey Pugh (the repeated name being no coincidence) from Testimonies, who is still working on the manuscript on St. Isidore that the real PO'B had lost during the war: he is, in sum, a continuation of numerous endings in PO'B's life.

So PO'B, writing in 1977 (I'm ignoring publishing lag time to simplify), 4 years after HMSS (1973), conceives of Jack once again; and here is Jack's reaction:

"'Stephen! [i.e., PO'B]' cried Jack, shooting out backwards with surprising nimbleness in so large a man and seizing his friend by both hands. His pink face was scarlet with pleasure, and a slight answering flush appeared in Maturin's. 'How very happy I am to see you, old Stephen! How are you? Where have you been? Where have you been all this time?'" (p. 17)

Similarly, here's Sophie:

"Her distracted look instantly changed to open delight, the sweetest smile. 'Oh Stephen,' she cried, how very happy I am to see you. Come in. I shall be down directly.'" (p.24)

On a somewhat related point, Clonfert, like James Dillon, can also be considered a tendency within PO'B's mind: Dillon was in many ways the "dark" side of PO'B's imagination that reins so freely in many of PO'B's short stories, but was seemingly vanquished in M&C; now, Clonfert, who is not an exact parallel to Dillon, but is similar in certain ways, appears and develops, and Stephen (PO'B's consciousness) finds him quite captivating at times, but the two tendencies cannot co-exist forever in equanimity, and, as with M&C, the darker side is once again vanquished (at least for now); thus is is that McAdam (the mind doctor) recognizes, "Your Jack Aubrey destroyed him. Jack Aubrey destroyed him." (p.345)

And whilst we're on the subject of symbolism, the name McAdam means "son of Adam" in a book that began (starting from the last line of HMSS) with "pure paradise" -- but I believe I've gone on long enough for one post...

John Finneran


From: Don Seltzer
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:27:05 -0500
Subject: Re: GRP: TMC: The New Beginning

John Finneran wrote in A Post of the Day:

I should note that all the characters are in a certain sense PO'B himself, since they are all products of his imagination, but I see Stephen as mainly his conscious self, his ego if you will, and Jack as a certain repressed conception within PO'B's imagination that appears repeatedly within his fiction and eventually comes to co-exist permanently and equally with his conscious self. This repressed conception of "powerful resilient cheerful youth" is at once Michael Russ O'Brien, PO'B's older brother, living once again; it is James Aislabie (J.A.), who rises from the dead in PO'B's short story "The Last Pool"; it is Joseph Aubrey Pugh (the repeated name being no coincidence) from Testimonies, who is still working on the manuscript on St. Isidore that the real PO'B had lost during the war: he is, in sum, a continuation of numerous endings in PO'B's life.

...

On a somewhat related point, Clonfert, like James Dillon, can also be considered a tendency within PO'B's mind: Dillon was in many ways the "dark" side of PO'B's imagination that reins so freely in many of PO'B's short stories, but was seemingly vanquished in M&C; now, Clonfert, who is not an exact parallel to Dillon, but is similar in certain ways, appears and develops, and Stephen (PO'B's consciousness) finds him quite captivating at times, but the two tendencies cannot co-exist forever in equanimity, and, as with M&C, the darker side is once again vanquished (at least for now); thus is is that McAdam (the mind doctor) recognizes, "Your Jack Aubrey destroyed him. Jack Aubrey destroyed him." (p.345)

An intriguing theory. One thing that struck me about TMC was how Stephen's role was mostly that of passive observer (he does do much in the way of intelligence work, but POB just skips over that part, keeping the action focus on Jack).

In the opening chapter, Stephen is looking upon the domestic scene with POB's jaded eye toward marriage and particularly children. It could have been POB himself sitting in the parlor and looking on with horror as the young girl played with a fine clock. Later, Stephen writes long passages in his diary that are clearly POB's thoughts on a number of ideas, including class distinction, courage, and the nature of leadership.

Like HMSS, TMC ends with the striking contrast between Jack's joy at the news of a son to carry on his name, and Stephen's utter despair and suicidal thoughts. With whom do you think that POB identified, childless with Mary, and his own son having completely broken with his father and returned to his original name of Russ?

John writes of the endings to the books. The first four books are notable in that they all end with bright prospects for Jack, and either little mention or dismal chances for Stephen. The fifth book is a turning point in the canon. It ends with Wogan and Herapath, stand-ins for Diana and Stephen, going off with hopes for what appears to be a happy future. And, not to get to far ahead, several of the following books conclude with visions of future happiness for the pair, with Jack as a simple bystander.

Don Seltzer


From: Ruth A Abrams
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:06:32 -0500
Subject: GRP: TMC: The New Beginning

Wow, how much fun was that! I don't believe in posts of the day, but if I did, John F.'s disquisition on how the endings work and on Stephen as POB's consciousness would be it.

here's the problem with characters as aspects of their author: there is no real debate about Jack vs. Stephen if they are both their author. Does it also mean that both Marianne and Elinor, Jane and Elizabeth, are aspects of Jane Austen? Are both Harry Potter and Snape, J.K. Rowling?

Some authors do admit that they are Heathcliff, but I think most are more removed.

RA


From: Steve Ross
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:54:51 -0600
Subject: Re: GRP: TMC: The New Beginning [also: in re "A Beautiful Mind"]

Bravo to John's analysis of endings and beginnings in the first four books of the Canon!

I must admit, when I posted a few days ago, as my grumpy old self, on the topic of "infertility and frustration" in the first chapter of TMC, Jack's closing words from HMSS were also on my mind. I had meant to add that the contrast with Jack's expectation of a "pure paradise" showed how POB was all too aware, from his own experience, of how often "happily ever after" could prove to be anything but (the reference is to his first marriage, not to Mary!). Of course, by the end of the book (I will not speak of later volumes), things have pretty well sorted themselves out; but Jack's restlessness at the beginning of TMC is not solely a result of his being "at sea ashore," is it?

On a totally different (non-POB) topic: I saw "A Beautiful Mind" last night. I was unaware, until I read about it in here, of the controversy over the "rumored same-sex encounter" that was left out of the film. But it seems to me, nevertheless, that the scene where Nash is distracted from his date at the party doesn't really hint at any attraction to other men, but is an early indicator of his paranoia (it seemed to him that those men were suspiciously "looking at him").

FWIW, I loved the movie.
--------------------
"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims." -- DI p. 67

Steve Ross
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W


From: John Finneran
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:19:44 -0800
Subject: GRP:TMC: Let us not obnubilate...

.. a few more points from TMC.

There is of course the great exchange between Stephen and MacAdam:

"'It is the pity of the world, Dr McAdam, to see a man of your parts obnubilate his mind with the juice of the grape.

"McAdam instantly collected his faculties and replied, 'It is the pity of the world, Dr Maturin, to see a man of your parts obnubilate his mind with the juice of the poppy.'"

(It occurs to me just as I write this, is McAdam, who has just denounced the Pope, making a pun between pope and poppy?)

Also, another fine character is Colonel Keating, about whom a bit of wild and irresponsible speculation:

He was in India at the same time as Diane.

Now, in HMSS, there was an interesting bit of dialogue: "She is wooing thee [this is Dil speaking of Diana wooing Stephen] -- she wishes to see thee by night, oh shameless, ha, ha, ha! But why, when she has three husbands? Because she must have a fourth, like the Tibetans: they have four husbands, and the Frank women are very like Tibetans -- strange, strange ways." (HMSS, p. 214)

So who are these four husbands? We know (1) Stephen; (2) Canning; and (3) Johnstone, but who was husband #4? Surely Jack was out of the running at this point, and, no, you can't count Johnstone as one husband and Johnson as another. So why not Keating? He has the bluff, straight-forward manner of Jack and Canning, so he'd be the type (or at least one of the types) that Diane goes for, and he was in the right place at the right time. Well, all right, there's not a lot of evidence, but it's an interesting thought at least...

John Finneran


From: Thistle Farm
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:22:22 EST
Subject: Re: GRP:TMC: Let us not obnubilate...

Villiers!


From: Marian Van Til
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:34:47 -0500
Subject: Re: GRP:TMC: Let us not obnubilate...

My question is: how did Dil know all this? (What am I forgetting/missing?)

Marian


From: Don Seltzer
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:51:19 -0500
Subject: Re: GRP:TMC: Let us not obnubilate...

I'm with Marian. Why not the obvious. Dil simply observed that Diana was being escorted in the carriage by three gentlemen who were obviously smitten with her, and didn't need Stephen as the fourth.

Don Seltzer


From: Adam Quinan
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:10:53 -0500
Subject: Re: GRP:TMC: Let us not obnubilate...

Wasn't Diana in the company of three other officers at the time, who were put out by the welcome Diana gave Stephen, or was that another occasion?

Adam Quinan


From: Thistle Farm
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:31:44 EST
Subject: Re: GRP:TMC: Let us not obnubilate...

Dil was refering to the three men in the cart with her-- for who else would she be out in public with but her husband(s)-- it is only wonderfully tangentally, obrianish that it also works symbolically.

Sarah


From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:47:37 EST
Subject: Re: GRP:TMC: Let us not obnubilate...

I took the passage to refer to the three escorts also- but the comment that Villiers was the fourth husband should have been obvious, but I too forgot that it was Diane's married name.

Blatherin' John B


From: Vanessa Brown
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 01:05:47 EST
Subject: Re: Canon Sex and a bit of GROUP READ MC

I'd put money down that if we polled the ladies on this list with the question: "Your preference as love interest, Stephen or Jack?" we'd find a unanimous vote for Stephen..........

I do dearly love Stephen, but tis Captian Jack that sets my heart a-flutter.

Who says there is little humour in MC after the opening chapter? An especially charming bit: Jack has landed his eerily well-behaved sailors and soldiers on shore, "The maidens resumed their vigil, clasping one another and giggling: none had yet been caused to blush... but hope was not altogether dead..."

-Vanessa quite ready to be boarded in the smoke.


From: Steve Ross
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:11:46 -0600
Subject: The "Rococo" O'Brian?

John Finneran's masterful post a few days ago, part of the TMC group read, used the word "rococo" to describe the strings of adjectives he found in comparing the opening sentences of different books. I don't want to split hairs, but I did think that characterization was a bit off, at least if we were to apply it to O'Brian's writing in general. One of the things that has always attracted me about it is its elegance, in the sense of doing just what is necessary and no more (not overly-elaborate or excessively ornamented, which is what I understand by "rococo"). How does he do it? With such a command of the language that he can always find precisely the right word to convey, not only meaning, but sense, flavor, color, and tone . . . so that many of his passages are, well not quite "spare," but close to it.

I have very little knowledge of art-critical categories, but I would still modestly suggest a different artistic metaphor for O'Brian's language. A couple of years ago I thought of writing a short essay or poem in tribute to the recently deceased author . . . wisely I abandoned this rash plan, but I retained from it one image: that of O'Brian's language as a column in the elegant, uncluttered Ionian order (as opposed to the austere Doric or the elaborate Corinthian). Does this make any sense?
--------------------
"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims." -- DI p. 67

Steve Ross
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W


From: Stephen Chambers (scc970@TISCALI.CO.UK)
Date: Mon Feb 04 2002 - 14:54:52 EST
Subject: The "Rococo" O'Brian?

The column comparison makes perfect sense to me and an almost perfect metaphor too. Rococo never seemed quite right to me at the time of reading, but I couldn't think of a better term so as usual I let it slide.

Stephen Chambers
50° 48' 38" N 01° 09' 15" W
Approx. 180 inches above sea level
When the pin is pulled Mr Grenade is no longer our friend.


From: Marian Van Til
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:42:56 -0500
Subject: Re: The "Rococo" O'Brian?

I had the same reaction. Steve Ross was thinking rococo art; I was thinking rococo music as points of comparison to John Finneran's "rococo phrases" in POB. Either way, I don't think "rococo" applies. We know O'Brian's sentences are often long, long, long, comprising multiple clauses -- as writing in the time the canon is set tended to be. But "long" doesn't necessarily mean florid or (excessively) decorative. So I, too, think Steve's Ionian column comparison is an excellent one. (Hey, Steve, you're not bein' a deadhead again, are you? <g>)

Marian


From: Roger Marsh
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:06:17 -0000
Subject: Signalling

I have lost the text of our earlier discussions on signalling, number of hoists for Nelson's famous signal, &c., (e.g., Don Seltzer , Martin , Les Hellawell).
However, I said then that I disagreed that: "If this is "Victory" flying the whole signal at once it is not the way it would have been done at the time. The whole signal took twelve "lifts", all from the mizzen mast" as stated. I referred to Lavery who cites the large number of flag halliards needed and fitted, particularly to a flagship, stating that the "Royal George" in 1794 had fifteen per side not counting the ensign halliards, on all masts, to trucks (mastheads), crosstrees and yardarms, from decks and tops, utilising 973 fathoms of rope, 5,838 ft of signal halliard.

I and our knowledgeable friend England Expects are still discussing it; here, with his permission, is his lengthy reply to my suggestion quoting Lavery:

" Gentlemen

With the pseudonym I have taken you would expect me to be reasonably knowledgeable on this subject and I hope that is indeed the case. I have tried to read everything there is, including the controversies regarding the wording, the controversy about which signal book was used and several others.
I learned quite early on that the most respected writer on naval signalling of the last century was Commander Hilary P Mead, an ex-Flag Lieutenant and Signal and Wireless Officer. I tracked down a copy of his 1936 book entitled Trafalgar Signals.
For this post I am inclined to just repeat the several paragraphs that Mead wrote on this subject. In a subsequent post I will make some further comments and put my own "spin" on the subject.
HOISTING THE FAMOUS SIGNAL
The question has often been asked whether the twelve groups of Nelson's signal were hoisted simultaneously, or a few at a time, or one by one. When the signal is displayed on board the Victory and at various other places on Trafalgar Day annually, of course the groups must be shown at one and the same time, but this is not to imply, by any means, that they were thus hoisted on the great day. Consider in the first place the number of sets of flags that would be available on board the flag-ships and repeating frigates. Failing any definite information on the subject, one would not expect these vessels to carry more than two sets, or perhaps three at the most. But it will be evident that certain flags appeared more times than three; for instance NO.2 occurs six times, and No.1 four times. It is quite certain that no ship, not even the Commander-in-Chief's flag-ship, would have possessed so many sets of bunting to make possible the simultaneous showing of all these hoists.

Consider also the question with regard to the seamen who hoisted the flags. If the groups were shown simultaneously at twelve different places, it would have entailed twelve men, or twelve pairs of men, going to various parts of the deck to send the flags aloft. One cannot quite see Lieutenant Pasco, capable as no doubt he was, detailing Able Seaman Anthony Aslett to go to the main starboard topsail yard-arm halyards and hoist "471" and Able Seaman Richard Heaver to go to the fore larboard topsail yard-arm halyards and hoist "370," and many others elsewhere, far away from his guiding influence on the poop. There were no specially trained signal ratings in 1805, and the handling of the colours and signal flags usually devolved upon the quartermasters. The first special rating in this branch, the Yeoman of the Signals, was not introduced till 1816. A photograph is in existence portraying Roome (or Roon), "the signaller who hoisted Nelson's famous signal at Trafalgar." One cannot see him, either, going round and hoisting thirty-one flags single handed.

I should like to suggest a sketch of what I think must have occurred, an impression not far removed from the details in Davidson's picture, which with its few faults, seems accurate in the main. On the poop of the Victory, on the after side, were situated the colour chests and signal flag lockers. Three or four men, quartermasters or A.B.s, under Pasco's immediate supervision, got out the flags, bent them on and hoisted them, as Pasco read out their numbers, to the mizen masthead one group at a time. To starboard and to larboard of the Victory were the Royal Sovereign and the Euryalus, flag-ship and repeating frigate respectively, both carrying expert signal staffs, who, we may be sure, repeated at their own mizens, as quick as lightning the groups seen flying in the Victory.

So far as Popham's special telegraph commencing "Preparative flag" is concerned, it is not clear what method was chosen. The "preparative" might have been hoisted at the main topgallant masthead, and kept up throughout the whole telegraph, and hauled down when "DUTY" was finished. Or the message might have commenced with the "preparative" as the first hoist at the mizen, and have ended with the special telegraph "Finishing flag" as the last hoist at the mizen. Both these methods are provided in Popham's code, and it is impossible to say which was adopted on the great day.

With regard to the modern display of the signal on commemorative occasions, it may be helpful to examine the possibilities in the past of hoisting more than one signal group at a time. Popham, in his Telegraphic Signals of 1803, the book used at Trafalgar, says :

In blowing weather, or when much sail is set, as it may be inconvenient to hoist three flags and a pendant at the same place, the two upper flags may be hoisted at one part of the ship, and the two others at another, taking the places in the following progression according as they happen to be complete: 1st main, 2nd fore, 3rd mizen, 4th gaft, 5th ensign staff.

From 1816 to 1868 the sequence was, "Maintopmast- head superior, then fore, then mizen, and lastly the gaff end." It was not till 1868 that the yard-arms were recognized in the signal books, and even then only the main and mizen topsail yard-arms were included, after the trucks and peak. The starboard halyards always took precedence over the larboard or port, in each case.

In 1897 the lower yards were added and the order then was, Main, Fore, Mizen truck, Peak, Main topsail and lower yard-arms, Fore yard-arms and Mizen yard-arms. This provided sixteen positions, and it will be noticed that it was customary to use up the mastheads and peak before having recourse to any of the yards.

To be perfectly accurate the yard-arms ought not to be used for showing Nelson's signal."

Do visit his own excellent site at http://pub59.ezboard.com/faboutnelsonfrm1 and join in the discussion.

Regards,

Roger Marsh


From: Ladyshrike@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:40:13 EST
Subject: GroupRead:TMC: crocus of antimony

I have (finally!) remembered to look up "crocus of antimony" - page 203 in the Norton edition, which says in reference to all the mail getting wet and Jack being unable to decipher Sophie's letters:
"Together they pored over the sheets, using a magnifying-glass, intuition, crocus of antimony, and a little diluted copperas; but to small effect."

I googled the archives and could find nothing (!?) about crocus of antimony, nor is it mentioned in PASC. So a big google search found these:

From
http://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~odonnell/OData/Courses/22C:096/ Definitions/antimony.def.html (mind the wrap!)
crocus of antimony: an impure sulphide of antimony and sodium, formed as a scoria in smelting antimony

From
http://www.wise.virginia.edu/history/runaways/clothgloss.html
Old Chem. A name given to various yellow or red powders obtained from metals by calcination; as crocus of antimony (crocus antimonii or c. metallorum), a more or less impure oxysulphide of antimony; crocus of copper (c. veneris), cuprous oxide; crocus of iron (c. martis; also in 15th c. crokefer), sesquioxide or peroxide of iron.

And last
http://www.c-zone.net/cjoksch/chemicals.htm
Antimony sulphide

This last page is particularly interesing because it plays a little pipe and drum ditty which sounds Scots/Irish to me.

Which the above notes beg the questions:
1. What purpose did crocus of antimony serve aboard ship?
2. What purpose did it serve in sorting out the mail?

Alice


From: Mary Arndt
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:28:29 -0500
Subject: Re: GroupRead:TMC: crocus of antimony

1. What purpose did crocus of antimony serve aboard ship?
2. What purpose did it serve in sorting out the mail?

If crocus of antimony is antimony sulfide, then it was most certainly brought aboard the barky by the good doctor, who hoped to employ it as a sovereign remedy for worms.
From "Inorganic Medicinal and Pharmaceutical Chemistry"
Block,Roche,Soine and Wilson; 1974:

Stibophen, U.S.P. XVIII [Pentasodium bis-4,5-dihydroxy-m-benzene-disulfonato(4-)antimonate(5-)]
This compound is used in the treatment of schistosomiasis.
Stephen probably didn't use intramuscular injection to treat schistosomiasis, as my old pharmacy text indicates, but more likely employed it orally to do away with tape worms. And it ought to work for this nicely, since antimony has many of the same attributes as arsenic. There are other antimony based remedies he might have used, but Antimony Potassium Tartrate does not have the sulfide groups and perhaps would not be considered "crocus of antimony"? Stephen and POB might be nodding here. Antimony Potassium Tartrate, aka Mynsicht's Emetic Tartar, was discovered by Adrian Mynsicht, physician of the early seventeenth century, who invented Elixir of Vitriol. It was used in a cough preparation called "Brown Mixture" N.F. XII.

Antimony compounds are more caustic than arsenicals, causing skin eruptions. The irritant action works on the gastrointestinal mucosa, causing an emetic action. The salivary and bronchial glands are reflexly stimulated which results in the expectorant action. Stephen no doubt thought this was very useful.

As for sorting out the mail, I would guess that Stephen was trying to use it to darken what was left of the ink on the letters, an experiment in chemistry that did not work very well.

Mary A


From: Ladyshrike@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:43:16 EST
Subject: GroupRead: still TMC: Jacotet

I had a really hard time keeping the places straight in and around Mauritius and La Reunion, and POB's mention of places not on the maps in the book added to the confusion. On Page 217 of the Norton edition, 'twas written:

"He had also cut out a four-hundred-ton merchantman from Jacotet, spiking the guns of the little batteries and taking some officers prisoner."

Jacotet? Huh? Where or who was Jacotet? I like the sound of this name and just had to find out... Google to the rescue!

There were only three entries for 'Jacotet map': one is about the great surfing there, another about a Hindu monastery, and this one -

http://www.lowtax.net/lowtax/html/jmuecom.html

"In 2001 Mauritius Telecom also started the installation of underwater fibre-optic cables in Bay Jacotet, in the South of the country, 40 km from Port Louis to house the SAFE fibre-optic network (South Africa-Far East) which will go from Cape Town. SAFE will in turn be linked in Cape Town to SAT-3/WASC (South Atlantic Telephone-West African Submarine Cable), which is 15,000-km long and links Europe to South Africa and Western Africa. SAFE will continue this connection over 13,800 km from Cape Town to Malaysia, linking Mauritius, Reunion and India on the way. The SAT-3/WASC-SAFE network goes from Sesimbra, Portugal, to Penang, Malaysia, connecting along the way India, Mauritius, Reunion, South Africa, Nigeria, Ghana, Cote d'Ivoire, Senegal and the Canaries. The network will become operational in October 2001."

How much different would it have been if there'd been email and telephone communications?

Alice


From: Ladyshrike@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:37:50 EST
Subject: GroupRead: TMC (again): calipash and calipee

I thought sure these had been discussed recently, but I can find nothing in the archives except a signature appendage by Hank Burchard, waayyy back some years ago. It's on my list of words to look up from TMC and I keep misplacing the list.

From page 183 in TMC, Norton edition:

"...although indeed Clonfert addressed almost all his conversation to his neighbour, Dr Maturin, and the two young commanders, Tomkinson of the OTTER and Dent of the GRAPPLER, did not feel it proper to open their mouths except to admit calipash and calipee, fat-tailed sheep and Cape Madeira."

From the Glossary, Dictionary, Food Resouce
http://www.orst.edu/food-resource/glossary/c.html - not a bad page in itself...

CALIPASH and CALIPEE
are terms probably corruptions of the word carapace, which is the hard, domed shell covering the back of the turtle, crab, lobster. In the popular acceptation the former word signifies the flesh of the turtle under the upper shell and the latter that upon the under shell.

Garrett, Theodore Francis (edited by). 1898. the Encyclopedia of Practical Cookery. L. Upcott Gill, 170, Strand, W.C. London. Vol. I

NOUN: An edible, gelatinous, yellowish substance lying beneath the lower shell of a turtle.

Alice


From: Mary S
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:49:51 EST
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC (again): calipash and calipee

Ladyshrike@AOL.COM writes:

CALIPASH and CALIPEE
are terms probably corruptions of the word carapace

Somehow I thought they were personages of the Planet Vulcan, home of the redoubtable Mr Spock...

[HMSS] Linois should be reasoned with --

Mary S
35° 58' 11" N
86° 48' 57" W


From: brumby6
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:55:41 -0600
Subject: Sweet Jack with spoiler for HMSS and M. Command

I think Jack's attitude toward his family is "sweet." Throughout HMSS, whenever he is thinking about being married to Sophie, his daydreams practically have a white picket fence around a little ivy-covered cottage. He thinks the future with her will be "pure paradise."

But when Stephen comes to see them in M. Command, and the Aubreys' marriage is so obviously unsatisfactory, Jack merely says it is his fault, he had the wrong idea about marriage, thinking it would have more friendship and closeness. He resists the temptation (how great it must have been!) to gripe about his wife to his friend.

I love him with his kids - when he is so horrified at Stephen's instructions against tossing the babies in the air, you KNOW he has been doing it a lot! When he finds out about George from Pullings, he is so thrilled, he doesn't even mind the shabby treatment he gets from the Admiral.

Linda


From: "Vanessa Brown"
Date: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:39 AM
Subject: Sweet Jack

In this vein, in this read-through I have noticed that there are many many times in the canon when we find Jack mourning Stephen's absence. Not just those times when he's beside himself with worry over Stephen ashore. But all the more touching are the times when Jack spies a bird, or a turtle and says "How I wish Stephen were here." How very loving that is. There are dozens of times this happens. Whereas, while we often see Stephen taking care of Jack's needs; getting him a ship or a lawyer, we never hear Stephen lament Jack's absence in quite the same way. Just thinking out loud...

Vanessa, frowsty and dissolute.


From: Peter Mackay
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:57:18 +1000
Subject: Sweet Jack with spoiler for HMSS and M. Command

I think Jack's attitude toward his family is "sweet." Throughout HMSS, whenever he is thinking about being married to Sophie, his daydreams practically have a white picket fence around a little ivy-covered cottage. He thinks the future with her will be "pure paradise."

But when Stephen comes to see them in M. Command, and the Aubreys' marriage is so obviously unsatisfactory, Jack merely says it is his fault, he had the wrong idea about marriage, thinking it would have more friendship and closeness. He resists the temptation (how great it must have been!) to gripe about his wife to his friend.

I was thinking about that just this moment - Jack is showing Stephen the fore crosstrees, with the initials carved upon the cap and waxing philosophic the both of them. Stephen is surprised to learn that a garden is included in a marriage - trim rows of cabbages and never a bug to be seen - and muses in his turn upon the infinity of sea ahead being the future, the ship the present with the bow-wave the very instant, and doubtless the confused wake the sleeping past.


From:brumby6
Date:Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:11:51 -0600
Subject:Sweet Jack with spoiler for HMSS and M. Command

Wow, Peter, great minds and all that!

I was disappointed in Sophie......the idea that she was turning into her mother!!! Poor Jack, who was looking for a partner to offset the loneliness and isolation of his rank. I wondered along with Stephen when Jack told him there was no chance of another child, so I was not surprised when Jack was able to pinpoint George's conception.

Linda


From: Thistle Farm
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:37:51 EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Sophie's coolness was [POB] Sweet Jack with spoiler forHMSSand M. Command

A long hard labor, no drugs and twins to boot would certainly put weaker women than Sophie off of child bearing!

My father in law is an only child for precisely that reason-- after a difficult labor and a ten pound baby there was simply no way Grandma Scott would ever risk having to do that again. I don't think the attitude was that uncommon in the pre-drug era, and is certainly understandable.

Mrs. Williams, for all the horror stories she probably poured into the girl's ears, managed to have three daughters. And didn't one of Sophie's sisters end up marrying quickly-- implying a little test drive? I've always seen Sophie's coolness as twin facets of her natural reserve and Jack's Go straight at 'em policy.

Sarah


From:brumby6
Date:Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:59:38 -0600
Subject:Re: [POB] Sophie's coolness was [POB] Sweet Jack with spoiler forHMSSand M. Command

Yes, Sophie definitely should have had the birth control chat with Diana long before she did.

I think Jack was looking for someone to talk to and share with as much as to have sex with. He was a very sociable creature who was just plain lonely.

I have to confess to being a total hypocrite about Sophie - I could never put up with she had to.

Linda


From: Greg White
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:47:46 -0500
Subject: Re: [POB] Sophie's coolness was [POB] Sweet Jack with spoiler forHMSS and M. Command

A long hard labor, no drugs and twins to boot would certainly put weaker women than Sophie off of child bearing!

Never mind the first three months with the twins.....

Greg

42º32'34.5" N
71º20'13.2" W


From: brumby6
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 17:54:15 -0600
Subject: Re: [POB] Sweet Jack with spoiler for HMSS and M. Command

I think Jack's attitude toward his family is "sweet." Throughout HMSS, whenever he is thinking about being married to Sophie, his daydreams practically have a white picket fence around a little ivy-covered cottage. He thinks the future with her will be "pure paradise."

But when Stephen comes to see them in M. Command, and the Aubreys' marriage is so obviously unsatisfactory, Jack merely says it is his fault, he had the wrong idea about marriage, thinking it would have more friendship and closeness. He resists the temptation (how great it must have been!) to gripe about his wife to his friend.

After thinking about this for a week, I realized that the tour thru the Aubrey land was a metaphor for the Aubrey home life. (This has probably been discussed a lot, hasn't it?) Jack finally has his dream - his cottage and his Sophie. He tries to run things like a ship, with ruler straight rows of plantings that don't thrive. The cow refuses the bull, no matter how game he is - sound like anyone we know? The roses, part of his idle dreaming, are spindly. The cabbage patch looks good, but underneath the cabbages are being eaten away.

But at the beginning of DI, everything seems rosy again. Finally they have some security. Was it perhaps poverty that was creating so much stress between them?

I did smile at Stephen's musing regarding Sophie and no more children: her labor with the twins had been unusually long and difficult, yet there had been no essential lesion. Easy enough for him to say, eh?

Linda


From: Peter Mackay
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 09:50:48 +1000
Subject:[POB] Catching up to the Groupread.

This morning, as is my habit, I finished HMSS and immediately turned to TMC, and straight into perhaps the funniest two chapters of the canon. Poor Jack!! At the end of HMSS he has Sophie in his arms and dreams of paradise with a white picket fence.

Yet when he achieves it, how sad is the marriage state. Everything is gone wrong and he doesn't have a penny to pay the postman, quite apart from the cow refusing the bull.

There are other good bits in the book, as I recall, and it's been about four years since last I read it (or rather heard it as an audio book), but it seems to me that PO'B was rather too confined by the historical campaign, and unable to arrange things as he wished. Fortune of War is of a similar vein - there are too many historical occurrences impinging on the narrative for it to be as free-flowing as we might wish. After FOW he pretty much enters the realm of plausible fantasy, rather than recounting any identifiable campaign or action.

But I've also got out The Surgeon's Mate so I can read two books at once and attempt to close the gap.


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