I'm excited enough about something in Chapter 1 that I can't make myself wait until January.
First some other comments:
Again, thanks to Susan Wenger for pointing out how the animal behaviors comment on -- or foreshadow -- the human story. On page 16, when "an uncommonly large black and white bird lifted from among the trees...the bird, now harried by pair of crows, crossed the valley and vanished over the hill that divided Ashgrove Cottage from the sea," this predicts Jack's flight at the end of the chapter. Later passages like "`How they do talk,' reflected Stephen: this was the first time he had ever seen the slightest possible evidence of a relationship between Sophie and her improbable mother...he watched Sophie and her mother, and their kinship became more apparent...an expression that a French colleague of his...had called `the English look', attributing it to frigidity..." makes clear who the crows are. And ditto for the cow refusing the bull on page 21 and Stephen's later "Jack, with his ardent temperament, must be strangely put out."
Stephen's innumeracy, a running joke in the canon, is present here when he cites the law of averages on page 31.
Jane Austen references abound through the chapter, this time mostly to _Emma_. Mapes and Ashgrove are reminiscent of Maple Grove, the seat of Augusta Elton's brother, Mr. Suckling. (POB wasn't the only one with a knack for names.) Mrs. Williams's gushing about the woods at Mapes on page 27 calls to mind Mrs. Elton talking about Maple Grove. On page 30, Stephen, in "Doctor Pissy" mode, tells Jack, `But I do beg you will not countenance that thoughtless way people have of flinging them [Jack's daughters] up into the air...it is a grievous error to fling them to the ceiling.' In _Emma_, Mr. Woodhouse says, "And then their uncle comes in, and tosses them [his nephews] to the ceiling in a very frightful way!" And sure enough, a ship called the Emma appears near the end of the book (p.327). Do any lissuns know if this is one of the real ships from the Mauritius campaign or an O'Brian invention?
On page 50, when Sophie "...was also sorry for her recent -- shrewishness was far too strong a word -- for now she ran straight on into praise of their visitor. Lady Clonfert was a most elegant, well-bred woman, with remarkably fine eyes..." the words echo Mis Bingley's "And for her eyes, which have sometimes been called so fine...they have a sharp, shrewish look" from _Pride and Prejudice_. And I think that a comment on page 36 about the chimney not drawing when the air is anything south of west echoes a line from _Persuasion_, though I haven't found it yet.
But the more I read Chapter 1 of TMC the more I kept hearing another voice there. It took me a long time to figure it out, but I think this isn't completely crazy.
Some passages from O'Brian:
1. Mrs. Williams to Stephen: "Not on the settle, Doctor Maturin, if you please. You will be more comfortable in Captain Aubrey's chair." (Page 25.)
2. "`A handsome clock it is too,' said Stephen. `A regulator, I believe. Could it not be set a-going?'
`Oh, no, sir,' said Mrs. Williams with a pitying look. `Was it to be set a-going, the works would instantly start to wear." (Page 26.)
3. "She told him loud and clear that they never had coffee except on birthdays...if he liked, she would butter his toast for him. She buttered a great deal of his coat too..." (Page 37.)
4. "They had pale, globular faces, and inthe middle of each face a surprisingly long and pointed nose called the turnip to an impartial observer's mind." (Page 29.)
5. "Bahi is largely inhabited by idiots." (Page 20.)
6. "...Sophie's head emerged. Her distracted look immediately changed to open delight, the sweetest smile...Stephen plucked off his hat, bowed and kissed his hand, though indeed he could perfectly well have reached hers from where he stood." (Page 24.) Later Jack says, of Sophie, "I might as well talk to the cathead." (Page 34.)
7. Bessie the cook, "A character, a character, that's all I want." (Page 23.)
Compare to some passages from a well known book:
1. "`No room! No room!' they cried out when they saw Alice coming. `There's _plenty_ of room!' said Alice indignantly, and she sat down in a large arm-chair at one end of the table.
2. "`What a funny watch!' she remarked. `It tells the day of the month and doesn't tell what o'clock it is!'"
3. "`I told you butter wouldn't suit the works!' he added, looking angrily at the March Hare.
`It was the _best_ butter,' the March Hare meekly replied.
`Yes, but some bread-crumbs must have got in as well,' the Hatter grumbled: `you shouldn't have put it in with the bread-knife.'"
(And note that the Mad Tea-Party takes place on Alice's birthday.)
4. "The baby grunted again, and Alice looked very anxiously into its face to see what was the matter with it. There could be no doubt that it had a _very_ turn-up nose, ..."
5. "`Oh, you ca'n't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here.'"
6. "She was looking about her for some way of escape, and wondering whether she could get away without being seen, when she noticed a curious appearance in the air: it puzzled her very much at first, but after watching it a minute or two she made it out to be a grin, and she said to herself, `It's the Cheshire-Cat: now I shall have somebody to talk to.` ...In another minute the whole head appeared...The Cat seemed to think that there was enough of it now in sight, and no more of it appeared...
`Who _are_ you talking to?' said the King, coming up to Alice and looking at the Cat's head with great curiosity.
`It's a friend of mine--a Cheshire-Cat,' said Alice: "allow me to introduce it.'
`I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'"
7. "They told me you had been to her,
And mentioned me to him;
She gave me a good character,
But said I could not swim."
Mrs. Williams and cook are very like the Queen and the Duchess, and some of the scenes at Ashgrove cottage are very similar to the "Pig and Pepper" chapter of Alice, a chapter perhaps in turn named with a wink to "Pride and Prejudice."
One of Lewis Carroll's alter ego's in _Alice_ is the Dodo (Dodgson stammered, pronouncing his own name "Do-dodgson"), native to Mauritius, for all love! (Don't we hear the story of its extinction from Stephen later in TMC?) Perhaps when POB was researching this he somehow learned of the dodo in the Oxford University museum, which [says Martin Gardner in _The Annotated Alice_] Carroll often visited with the Liddell children?
So, I believe that O'Brian wrote Chapter 1 of TMC partly with a nod and a wink to _Alice_. Have I sold anyone else on the idea? (Or, is this a tired old idea in the Gunroom from before I got here?)
-Jerry
Jerry Shurman, in his delightful set of comments on literary echoes in the canon, sets a "best butter" comment in Wonderland.
We can look ahead to the last book, BAM, and find "proof" if we need it, that Jerry has indeed spotted an interesting passage.
There's a longish bit where the navigator of an American ship visits Surprise, bringing his faulty chronometer with him. (Remember that the March Hare cdn't fix the watch, even though he used the "best butter.")
Maturin, however, manages to fix the American's chronometer.
When the Americans go back to their ship, they leave a gift: a decanter of Dutch schnapps.
Speaking of their generosity, Jack says: They have won again...How I hope we gave them something, at least."
I did have half a carboy of tincture of hogweed conveyed into their boat, says Maturin in a doubtful voice. It was the best hogweed, he added with even less certainty. (The March Hare's reply was made "meekly.")
Q.E.D.
Charlezzzz
In a message dated 12/9/01 2:51:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@REED.EDU writes:
a ship called the Emma appears near the end of the book (p.327). Do any lissuns know if this is one of the real ships from the Mauritius campaign or an O'Brian invention?
Emma appears to have been quite genuine. On page 393 of C. Northcote Parkinson's "War In the Eastern Seas", in the discussion of the Mauritius campaign is the statement that Commodore Rowley, the historical figure whose place Jack Aubrey takes in the POB novel, "was chased off by the Venus and the Manche and returned to St. Paul's, quickly sending off the transport Emma to cruise off Rodriguez and warn all friendly shipping of what the position was." David Lyon's "The Sailing Navy List: All the Ships of the Royal Navy - Built, Purchased and Captured - 1688-1860" under the heading of "Hired Ships" lists the Emma as from 1809-1811 being an "Armed ship", although there is a note that the name is from unofficial sources, a common note among these hired ships.
Bruce Trinque
41°37'53"N 72°22'51"W
I forgot to say that Stephen's peripatetic hatful of mushrooms has an offstage history very like the stolen tarts in _Alice_.
And I wonder if Jack Aubrey having a name so similar to "Jane Austen" is just coincidence.
-Jerry, wondering when this sort of speculation crosses the line to "crackpot"
Jerry Shurman
wondering when this sort of speculation crosses
the line to
"crackpot"
It crosses the line when I disagree with it : }
It hasn't crossed the line.
=====
I'm on digest now and not reading through them closely, so apologies if
this duplicates what someone else has already noticed.
The _Alice_ references die down after Chapter 1 of TMC, but there's one
notable exception. Around page 194 in my edition, during a storm, Stephen
falls down several ladders and into a supply of treacle, echoing Alice's
entry into Wonderland and the Dormouse's story about the three sisters who
lived at the bottom of a treacle well. The three sisters drew all sorts of
things that begin with "M," such as much of a muchness, a phrase that
O'Brian uses in TMC.
But most tellingly, soon after Stephen's misadventure with the treacle he
confers with his assistent, one Mr. Carol. How delightful to find the
Rev. Dodgson himself making a cameo in the canon!
-Jerry
Hello can anyone throw any light on this passage?--page 67 in my version of .Mauritius Command. to do with crossing the equator
.for when they reduced sail to let Neptune come aboard, accompanied by an outrageously lewd Amphritrite and Badger-Bag, he(Jack) found no less than 123 souls who had been made free of the equator by being lathered with rancid grease(tar etc -i understand)-------and shaved with a piece of barrel-hoop before being ducked.?
Alec O F
A long time tradition of initiating those who had not crossed the line. It still
goes on.
--
"Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? http://www.maturin.org/
When a ship crosses the equator, the dread King Neptune comes aboard,
accompanied by his court, and those who have not previously made the
crossing, known as pollywogs, undergo a terrible ordeal of initiation, by
which they are reborn as shellbacks
This is a naval tradition- Initiation for anyone crossing the equator for
the first time.
Blatherin' John B
Pollywogs and shellbacks- them war the terms i war alookin' fer !
Blatherin' John B
And don't we know it, too! I still carry my shellback
card,now years since that fateful day. There's nothing
like awaking at dawn, crawling on your hands & knees
through garbage and old food,being urged on by
satan-posessed shipmates with lengths of doubled
fire-hose up and down (KER-WHACK!) the length of the
ship (CVN-65, USS Enterprise is 1,100 #$%^&ing feet
long!)then a bracing jog for a lap or two, then being,
er, well, I shall have the nightmare again if I go on,
then a dunk in a tank of water (incidentally, still
one of the best photos ever taken of yours truly), and
a hosedown by the ship's fire fighting equippment and
finally, at sunset, the mother of all field days to
clean the ship up to fighting conditioning again...and
as a special bonus for us, we had a general quarters
alert 2 hours after I'd turned in to my rack. So 4
hours after that, onto watch.
Now, why do I remember that day so clearly?
Kyle
123 souls who had been made free of the equator by being lathered
with rancid grease(tar etc -i understand)-------and shaved with a piece
of barrel-hoop before being ducked.?
It refers to forced immersion. It is NOT a typo, and I am surprised that
your mind works that way. For shame!
Cheers, Peter
I fid not think it was a typo -Dorsooth
Alec O F
Marshall Rafferty
The thing that most struck me in the last several
books was the gradual disappearance of the crew.
I think that this is, in part, because Jack has risen
higher in command and as a result has less contact
with the lower orders.
Ray Mcp
He's *always* been the captain. Very early on he is in command of
exactly the same ship as which he ends the series. And in TMC, an early
novel, he is a very senior officer indeed.
But there is a difference in connection with a newly-risen captain. Even
he thinks of it in the first book, interpreting looks and silences and
knowing
what they meant. And in TMC, there are several places where he seems to
recognize the duality and the temporary quality of his position -- and
several instances where he finds himself apart from an understanding of
those in his command (particularly of his captains -- ref. Stephen's "do not
blame the bull because the frog has burst", my paraphrase), even almost
deliberately blind in a couple of instances to things he would have been
more concerned about earlier on -- I'm thinking particularly of Corbett.
Jack's
are now the larger issues, where once he would have prioritized a happy
ship and been more worried about rolling shot and whistling in the dark.
As the books progress, he mentions feeling the distance and isolation more
in various references. And it seems to me Ray's onto something. As Jack's
is further away and higher in command, so we too have the stuff of neurotic
gentlemen also-rans, plucking themselves to death for their own sense of
failure. When we see the motley crew below-decks, it is often through
Stephen's eyes, or just over his shoulder.
Which it *was* a hairbrush,
=MacKenna
Can't wait another day, I'll be away tomorrow when TMC opens.
I have a question niggling at me from The Mauritius Command and an
observation.
On page 59, what Jack knew, and what Stephen did not, was that those
forty-seven minutes had made all the difference betweeen salvage and no
salvage. The Intrepid Fox had been taken at forty-six minutes past ten on
Tuesday, and if he had accepted the surrender of the French prize-master
one moment before twenty-four hours had passed, by sea-law the guineaman
would not have been salvage at all.
How did Jack know that? He was at sea and he came upon some enemies and
prizes. The allies aboard wouldn't have been in a position to signal him,
and the French wouldn't have told him the time of capture. He wasn't
there, so how did he know to stall for 46 minutes?
In return, here's something I spotted.
page 34, Stephen and Jack are talking about Sophie, and Stephen says
"Allow me to pour you another glass of this port. It is an innocent wine,
neither sophisticated nor muddy, which is rare in these parts."
He's certainly speaking of Sophie when he describes this wine.
How did Jack know that? He was at sea and he came upon some enemies
and prizes. The allies aboard wouldn't have been in a position to
signal him,
Would not the french ship's log have given the time?
Barney Simon
As I understand P's question, Jack delayed taking the
ship for exactly 47 minutes. He wouldn't have had the
French ship's log until after it was taken, so how did he
know how long he had to stall?
- Susan
I have not looked again, but it seems to me that he had the crew from the
prize before he completed his attack on the Frenchman. They would have
told him when they got captured. so he held off accepting the surrender.
Blatherin' John B
I think he RE-took the french ship's PRIZE not the french ship after the
appropriate minutes.
Barney
I have not looked again, but it seems to me that he had the crew from
the prize before he completed his attack on the Frenchman. They would have
told him when they got captured. so he held off accepting the surrender.
Correct, sir, but the other way around. Aubrey captured the Hebe first when
she ran aground, and must have found out from her crew what time they had
captured the snow, Intrepid Fox, which was then secured after 47 minutes of
'backing and filling' to ensure that she was regarded as salvage.
Sam
P. Richman wrote:
page 34, Stephen and Jack are talking about Sophie, and Stephen says
"Allow me to pour you another glass of this port. It is an innocent wine,
neither sophisticated nor muddy, which is rare in these parts."
He's certainly speaking of Sophie when he describes this wine.
What a great observation! Now we have another set of metaphors to watch
out for when rereading.
Here's another possibility from FOW. The early Diana of PC and HMSS was
"no good, no good at all" - J. Aubrey. After an absence of several books,
POB decided to bring her back, now rehabilitated. At the initial dinner
with Stephen, Diana, and Johnson, it seems that the wine might be bad.
Stephen takes a sip and declares,
"I am no great judge of wine, but I have heard that very occasionally the
mouthful just round the cork may have an ill taste, while the rest of the
bottle is excellent. Perhaps that is the case here".
A couple of random observations:
And [Warning, THD spoiler below]
Madeira was the setting at the end of HMSS when Stephen received the letter
from Diana, informing him that she had left him, to run off to America with
Johnstone/Johnson. And it was also in Madeira that Stephen again received
a heartbreaking letter telling him that Diana had "left him", this time
permanently. I wonder if POB had any personal reasons to associate Madeira
with such unhappiness (Wantage certainly did).
Don Seltzer
Don Seltzer wrote:
A couple of random observations:
In HMSS, particular note is made by Jack and Stephen of the 17th of the
month, when Diana and Canning were expected to arrive in Bombay. And
similarly in FOW, Diana and her new paramour Johnson make a similar
reappearance in the canon, arriving in Boston on the 17th of May.
Perhaps a day of significance in POB's own life?
The 17th that comes immediately to mind is March 17th (St. Patrick's Day),
though I don't know that that has much bearing here.
On the very astute observations about PO'B's wine metaphors: we shouldn't
forget his short story "The Chian Wine", in which the whole story is an
extended wine metaphor, so this is certainly a technique PO'B sometimes
uses.
John Finneran
Well, it's been 200000002 for a day already and I'd just like to say
that the opening of TMC contains the longest sustained humorous piece in
the entire canon, in my humble opinion. Oh, but it had me in stitches
when I first heard it. Lucky Jack Aubrey, the Scourge of the Seven Seas,
brought to a stand by caterpillars and shrews!
Which I have to say that the holiday on the Gold Coast was wonderful,
though too short by half and too hot by far. It's a hot, windy day today
here in Canberra, and I'm dreading the bushfire report in half an hour.
On a day like today a fire can spring up and whip from treetop to
treetop at a frigate's speed.
But here in suburban Campbell we're overhauling the manchester after the
summer sales and the sheets have dried almost as soon as we put them on
the line. Ripped up the carpet in the master bedroom for good measure to
expose the glorious old golden floorboards.
Cheers, Peter
p.102 "Decency required Jack to refresh the flag-lieutenant; decency
required the flag-lieutenant to see his share out with in ten minutes,..."
I love that sentiment and understanding of custom.
Barney Simon
p 52 JA's letter states ..." at dawn on the 17th instant, the Dry
Savages..." how does the use of the work 'instant' signify? It seems
rather inprecise.
p.60 JA signals "happy returns." I assume this is related to the same as
when you buy a train ticket there and back, you buy a "return ticket?"
p 187 in Clonfert's cabin, we have a couple of "pier-glasses" which I
expect to be mirrors, but then I might also expect them to be
"peer-glasses." I can think of piers for boats, piers for bridges, is
there something I am missing?
from p. 215 on we have the use of the term 'howitzer' used for cannons. I
always assumed that Howitzer was a term like "Colt" or "Winchester" what is
its history?
Barney Simon
Pier-glasses are large, high mirrors designed usually to be placed between
windows. In great houses of the era, they were designed to be especially
pretty by candlelight, and to present the ladies in fine aspect (they were
sometimes slightly tinted to beautify the candlelit reflection). They were
expensive at the time and often beautifully-made.
=MacKenna
From www. google.com
The large pier glass
was created by the casting method, and not from blown
cylinder. Furnace technology advanced quickly in the industrial
revolution.
Blatherin' John B
MacKennaC@AOL.COM writes:
They were expensive at the time and often beautifully-made.
Still are, both.
Blatherin' John B
I think of a "pier glass" as a tall, narrow mirror, ornately framed.
In this instance another indication of Clonfert's vanity.
Gerry Strey
Vanity. Or lack of a sense of personal identity. Needing reflected
identity to feel whole.
Lois, thinking of Cooley's discussions of the sense of self, and mirroring
Certainly self-absorption!
-=MacKenna
Barney Simon wrote:
p 52 JA's letter states ..." at dawn on the 17th instant, the Dry
Savages..." how does the use of the work 'instant' signify? It seems
rather inprecise.
Day of the month.
p.60 JA signals "happy returns." I assume this is related to the same
as when you buy a train ticket there and back, you buy a "return ticket?"
Not sure. Trains hadn't been invented yet.
from p. 215 on we have the use of the term 'howitzer' used for cannons.
I always assumed that Howitzer was a term like "Colt" or "Winchester" what
is its history?
My dictionary says: From Dutch houwitser, ultimately from Czech houfnice
ballista, 1695. Encyclopedia Britannica says it is a crew-served weapon
with hollow, powder-filled projectiles.
Larry
The Happy Return by CS Forester, brought tears to my eyes.
As I understand it, when one wishes "many happy returns", it is not a
train voyage one conjures up, but a return to that day in a year's time,
and many more after.
from p. 215 on we have the use of the term 'howitzer' used for cannons.
I always assumed that Howitzer was a term like "Colt" or "Winchester" what
is its history?
It is defined as a short barrelled cannon for firing in a high trajectory ,
capable of hitting 'out of line-of -sight' targets. Apparently derived
from germanic term for catapult.
Blatherin' John B
Barney Simon wrote:
p 52 JA's letter states ..." at dawn on the 17th instant, the Dry
Savages..." how does the use of the work 'instant' signify? It seems rather
inprecise.
Larry Finch answered:
Day of the month.
That is, the current month. E.g. Wednesday of this week could be referred
to as "The 3rd instant" until February, after which it would be the "3rd
Jan.".
I do not pretend to teach you to sail your sloop or poop
or whatever you call the damned machine...[HMSS 76]
Mary S
3rd ult?
3rd ult?
Ooh yes, I'd forgotten that charming piece of period. Thanks!
I believe that in February, it would be called "the 3rd ult." (for ultimo)
and that in December it would have been called "the 3rd prox." (proximo).
I have the honour to be
Kerry
As for "instant," isn't it Latin legalse for "this month"? Can some
lawyer Lissun help here?
No lawyer I, and I don't think it needs one, but "inst." and "instant"
certainly mean "this month" (the current one), as "ult." does "last month";
a now-archaic usage much employed by previous generatons in business
correspondence.
A howitzer fired shells in a high arcing trajectory, like a mortar, and was
almost exclusively for land-based, Army use; its dictionary-given
derivation has been dealt with here, though I have always wondered whether
there was not originally some Polish or East Prussian gentleman by the name
of Howitz or Howicz who invented it.
Regards,
Roger Marsh
While I understand the General breaking his arm patting himself on the back
and taking credit for others' work, this wording (using his name the second
time) struck me as odd.
Barney Simon
Is Clonfert based upon anyone historically specific?
Barney Simon
Well, yes and no. The role that Clonfert plays during the campaign to
conquer Mauritius is closely modeled that of Nesbit Willoughby, who in
reality commanded the vessels assigned in O'Brian's novel to Lord Clonfert
and who in actuality undertook the combat operations attributed in TMC to
Clonfert. However, the personality of Clonfert would appear to be
O'Brian's own invention, with any particular relation to that of Willoughby.
(O'Brian did something similar, of course, in "Master and Commander" where
Jack
Aubrey's service aboard the Sophie is virtually an exact copy of that of
Lord Cochrane aboard the Speedy, yet Jack Aubrey is nonetheless a wholly
originally character in terms of his background and personality.)
I have published on the Internet an article about the actual Mauritius
Campaign which describes the actual Royal Navy officers involved and even
contains a portrait of Willoughby. It can be found at
http://members.aol.com/batrinque/personal2/index.htm
Bruce Trinque
Excellent article- and it contains most of the elements of the POB
novelization.
Blatherin' John B
It was POB's novel, of course, which got me interested in the subject. The
best published source for the campaign is the long out-of-print "War In the
Eastern Seas" by C. Northcote Parkinson, although there is useful
information in James' history of the Royal Navy as well.
Bruce Trinque
Perhaps P o'B used the more negative aspects of Lord Cochranes personality
for Clonfert.
Regards,
I personally do not think that Aubrey and Thomas, Lord Cochrane, are
particuarly similar in very many respects, neither physically nor in
personality.
To be sure, they share some qualities, skills and attitudes, to wit:
courage, seamanship, honour, concern for their men in the Nelsonian mould,
were both more successful afloat than ashore and Aubrey has "adopted" many
of the real Cochrane's experiences, both his trials and his tribulations,
but much of that could be said of quite a few commanders from the age of
sail and otherwise there are great differences (Hornblower nicked some of
his exploits too, though not much of his basic character though that has
been claimed as well, and Maryatt actually served as midshipman under him
in "Imperieuse").
I feel that Clonert fits even less of the Cochrane mould, even his less
desirable traits. See what you all think - read a good biography of
Cochrane, but PLEASE, NOT the latest one by Robert Harvey, definitely the
one to avoid, written by a man who quite evidently knows so little about
the 18thC ships, navies and their organisation, shiphandling, gunnery, etc.
about which he purports to inform us that it is quite embarrassing to read.
Cochrane was justly named by Napoleon "Le Loup des Mers".
Regards,
Roger Marsh
read a good biography of Cochrane, but PLEASE, NOT the latest one by
Robert Harvey, Roger Marsh
Which ones are good? I'm only going to read one, which one should it be?
EB
I would recommend first Ian Grimble's "The Sea Wolf", followed by Donald
Thomas's "Cochrane: Britannia's Last Sea-King". Christopher Lloyd's "Lord
Cochrane: Seaman, Radical, Liberator" is worth reading, but not as detailed
as the others. Cochrane's autobiography ("The Autobiography of a Seaman")
is not exactly unbiased -- and is awfully heavy going when he discusses the
Stock Exchange trial.
Bruce Trinque
Recommended biographies of this greatest of all the frigate captains are:
"Thomas Cochrane, Britannia's Last Sea King" (Donald Thomas - also reprinted
under the title "Cochrane - Britannia's Sea Wolf")
Also, though heavy going in parts:
"Autobiography of a Seaman" - his own autobiography, but only the first
half of his extraordinary career, up to his trial and imprisonment.
The one to avoid, as I said before, is the more recently-published
"Cochrane: The Life and Exploits of a Fighting Captain" by Robert Harvey,
full of "howlers" and inaccuracies (e.g., and this just one example
amongst all-too-many, the author he tells us that the 6th Rate frigate
"Hind" was a 28-gun 9-pdr. armed 2-masted schooner, and even then compounds
this most basic error by going in detail into how a schooner was rigged and
the comparative advantages of fore-and-aft vs. square rig).
Of these I prefer Thomas, but not one of them contains all the elements
of his life, too incredible to write as fiction; even fiction writers can
take only one or two of his exploits at a time to avoid the accusation of
gross exaggeration - and many have; you will find actions which O'Brian's
Aubrey and Forester's Hornblower "fought", as well as those in Captain
Marryatt's fiction; Maryatt had the stories at first hand, having served
as midshipman under him in "Impérieuse". Lady Cochrane, née Kitty Barnes,
was also a quite formidable person, as well as beautiful.
Cochrane's whole story contains all the elements needed for a great film
or TV series, if properly handled - and the story is for free, no royalties!
Anyone interested, O beautiful people of Hollywood? Or Pinewood, or New
Zealand? (I suppose it would end up having Hollywood money in it anyway). I
give you, "Cochrane – Wolf of the Seas" – raise your glasses,
please, Sirs and Ma’ams – no, no, you may stay seated, if we may
sit for His Majesty, then we may for Lord Cochrane too.
Regards,
Roger Marsh
One fault that I found among several of the above books is that they relied
too heavily upon Cochrane's own autobiography, often accepting without
question his version of events. "Autobiography of a Seaman" was written
half a century after the period it describes. To some extent, it was an
effort by Cochrane to restore his public image, now that most of his
enemies were dead, and unable to contradict his book. Not surprisingly,
his account is less than candid, leaving out some of the less flattering
details. Later biographers could have done a better job of researching
other sources, and challenging Cochrane's version.
Cochrane wrote very little about his family, and none of his biographers as
far as I know covered that subject as well as they might. There are only
the briefest mentions of uncle Sir Alexander Cochrane and his numerous
naval cousins. There is, however, a book written by a member of the
Cochrane clan, titled "The Fighting Cochranes". It traces the family tree
through all of the Cochranes who served in the military. I was surprised
to learn of the extensive role that Alexander Cochrane played as the
patriarch of the naval Cochranes, promoting the careers of a "cousinhood"
of six sons and nephews, including "our" Thomas Cochrane.
Don Seltzer
Clonfert is in Galway, 13 miles southeast of Ballinasloe, which, if I
remember, Stephen Maturin mentions a couple of times in the canon.
To quote my Bord Failte guide (Irish Tourist board), the church there was
founded by St. Brendan the Navigator ( author of the famous Navigatio) in
563.
Jean A.
POB always uses the word for the instrument that SM plays as the " 'cello."
What was the full word and when was it abbreviated officially?
Barney Simon
Violincello.
not sure when it was abbreviated.
Something like the instrument called a "piano" -- really a "pianoforte."
(as I understand it, anyway)...
bs
Cello is short for violoncello. My copy of the Oxford English Dictionary
indicates its first use in English as dating from 1881. I don't know
whether its use on the Continent may have preceded its introduction into
written
English, and I have seen the OED proven wrong from time to time.
Bruce Trinque
Bruce says:
But that ain't all. The present cello has a "spike" on its lower end, wch
lets the player keep it rested on the floor (and perhaps wd ruin your
parquet if you invited a cellist for dinner.)
But what wd have Maturin played? The viola da gamba is (I think) a sort of
cello wch is held off the floor between the legs. Was it the form of cello
used in those days? Was it a cello at all? Was it what Maturin might have
played?
I dunno, but I know there are lissuns who do know. About four years ago,
Steve Zimmerman, whose sister was giving a concert in Doylestown (!) on
that very instrument, and a group of other Lissuns [the guilty know who they
are, and some are active here and now] gathered at my house before that
concert
for a Lissunmoot of no mean proportions.
And there was one huge coincidence. I was wallowing in my sorrow that the
homebrew India Pale Ale wch I was creating in my cellar wd not be ready in
time. Up comes Zimmerman with the news that he was not only brother to a
sister who played the viola da gamba...but he created his own India Pale
Ale, and he brought a huge case of it with him.
And so we had a glorious Lissunmoot.
Charlezzzz, ready for another case of the stuff
I'm on digest, so these questions may have been answered already, but just
in case: "'cello" is short for "violoncello" (not "violincello").
The instruments of the violin family have their sizes described by the
Italian suffixes of their name: "ino" itself means "small," a bass is a
"violone," or "big violin." "Elo" or "ello" is an Italian diminutive and
"c" a linking consonant, as in vermicelli spaghetti, and thus
"violoncello" literally means "small big violin." ("Violoncino" was
another early variant.)
As for "instant," isn't it Latin legalse for "this month"? Can some
lawyer Lissun help here?
Jerry, immobile alone for four weeks after knee surgery and going steadily
buggier
The 'cello is not a descendent of the viola da gamba, the two instruments
coming from different families, the violins and the viols. But Stephen's
'cello may indeed have lacked an endpin.
Viols descend from lutes. "Viola da gamba" is an Italianization of
"Vihuela de kabus" or "vihuela de ganbus," with the additional happy
circumstance of "gamba" meaning leg, as in That viola da gamba player sure
has nice gams.
In these reenactment-fetish times, viols are being revived.
Jerry
Charlezzzz@AOL.COM writes:
But that ain't all. The present cello has a "spike" on its lower end,
wch lets the player keep it rested on the floor (and perhaps wd ruin your
parquet if you invited a cellist for dinner.)
But what wd have Maturin played? The viola da gamba is (I think) a sort of
cello wch is held off the floor between the legs. Was it the form of cello
used in those days? Was it a cello at all? Was it what Maturin might have
played?
Charlezzzz, I'm not an expert, and could be wrong about some of the
following, but the viola da gamba is quite a different instrument, a member
of the viol family rather than the violin family, and I feel sure that
O'Brian intends that Stephen is playing a violincello. For one thing, I
suspect it was an oblique nod to the _Catalan_ cellist, Pablo Cassals.
The shape of the viola da gamba (and of all the viols) is somewhat
different; the fingerboard is fretted (like a guitar) where violin-family
members (violin, viola, cello, double-bass) have smooth fingerboards; and
most importantly they have six strings tuned mainly in fourths, (which
makes chord playing easier) where the violincello has only four strings,
tuned
mainly in fifths. This means that the fingering is different between the
gamba and the violin whereas the fingering is the same between a violin and
a cello. I've been told that the viol instruments are easier to play, but
also don't allow as much fancy technique as the modern violin/viola/cello.
All members of the viol family, even the higher pitched smaller treble,
tenor and alto instruments, were held downward to be played - similar to
the way a violincello is played rather than the way a violin is played. The
bow
is curved differently (shaped like a D instead of like a K, where the left
hand stroke is the hair and the right hand stroke is the wood) and held
differently (more like the way a German double-bass bow is held, I think,
rather than the way a cello or French double-bass bow is held. In other
words, to a casual observer they look a lot alike, (like Stephen thinking
all
vessels are 'ships' rather than brigs, polacres, etc.etc.) and sound
similar, but are actually very different.
I think by 1800 the cello was the much more common instrument - I'm not
sure that the viola da gamba was in common use much past the middle of the
18th
century, or "Old Bach", although it has survived as a 'specialty'
instrument for period music today.
Rowen
violincello
Oops - as Jerry pointed out, it is spelled with an 'o': violoncello.
Rowen
Rowen says:
My ignorance is vast, but I am not humbled. Am I not a member of the
Gunroom, wch is the repository of all knowledge? Thankee, Rowen, because now
I know
more than I used to know, more than I will remember, indeed.
A glass of India Pale Ale with you
Charlezzzz
Charlezzzz@AOL.COM writes:
But what wd have Maturin played? The viola da gamba is (I think) a sort
of cello wch is held off the floor between the legs
I don't know why these notes dredge up humorous images- but this statement
immediately brought to mind an old John Astin movie, where he is a
notorious
gunman in love with a Boston socialite. He goes to visit her during a
chamber music concert, walks up to the cello player, pulls his peacemaker
and tells the man to "put that fiddle up under yer chin like a regular man.
You ain't one o' them "funny fellers, is yer ?"
Blatherin' John B
Adding my two cents to the cello and viola de gamba discussion:
One reason some wish to revive the viola de gamba is that some of the ways
it differs structurally from the cello are better for the musician. A
friend of mine was a cellist and has become a--what? a violist? no. anyway
he's found that the structure of the older instrument doesn't aggravate
his repetitive stress injury in the way the cello did, so he can make
music again.
Did you ever wonder how Stephen regained the ability to play after his
fingers were damaged by torture? Made me think of Jango Reinhart, the
famous jazz guitarist, who lost fingers and played anyway.
ruth A.
I've been reading JA's speak so long... on p.324, did he actually get two
correct?
"we must make hay while the sun shone" and "we must strike while the iron
is hot"
Barney Simon
"we must make hay while the sun shone"
Well, if that's verbatim, the grammar leaves something to be desired, as
verb agreement is all over the place -- but in that era, with Jack, the
improper may reek of period and certainly has considerable charm.
If I'm remembering that passage as well, isn't that the one where he uses
several metaphors in a row? If so, I think it again points up his frequent
use of cliches.
Regretting her character map ain't working,
-=MacKenna
In this month's read, TMC, we see several numbers of guns used for
saluting:
p.86... 9 to a Captain
Is there a chart or reference to the code of honor when firing guns on
salute? I assume that 21 guns is at the top of the list as that is the big
send off at funerals.
Barney Simon
that 21 guns is at the top of the list
also saluting heads of state
Blatherin' John B
No one in the book seems too worried, but what would JA's responsibility
before a Court Marshal or otherwise, have been for the "appalling disaster
at the Ile de la Passe"?
Barney Simon
My recollection is that Jack Aubrey's real-life counterpart, Commodore
Josias Rowley, was not court-martialed for the Ile de la Passe disaster. He
was
not present at the battle of course, and his subsequent quick action in
regaining the initiative and in combatting the French vessels at sea
probably did not
hurt either.
Bruce Trinque
The other day some dear lissun reminded me of the humorous opening pages of
TMC. On page 16 of the harper Collins Edn (2nd page of writing) we find
the bit where Stephen is collecting mushrooms to take to Jack.
"On his saddle bow lay a net, filled with a variety of mushrooms - bolets
of all kinds, blewits, chanterelles, jews ears - and now, seeing a fine
flush
of St Bruno' collops, he sprang from his horse...."
Now bolets, chanterelles, even jew's ears and blewitts are all common
enough English mushrooms, but I had never before heard of St Bruno's
collops.
Neither of my (admittedly smallish) field guides to British fungi
mentioned them at all; so I tried the web. Just about the only search which
returned
anything about St Bruno and collops (collops being a Scottish/Irish
corruption of escalope, by the way) was
http://indigo.ie/~kfinlay/jbarrington/jonahindex.htm
This site happens to be part of a larger site called Chapters of Dublin
History, and the reference in question appears in Chapter 5 "Irish
Dissipation" of a book entitled "Personal sketches of Jonah Barrington".
The story involves various 18th Century? merry japes on St. Stephen's Day,
and the collops in question were cut from a cow.
So it looks to me as if POB was practising upon us with his St Bruno's
collops; as he has practised upon us before by using his extensive reading
of obscure texts.
Of course, this may just be speculation - but I wouldn't put it past the
old feller -
Would you?
Cheers!
55:044.17 North
As The Mauritius Command opens, I was struck again how POB accentuates
Jack's and Stephen's different milieus: Jack isn't just keenly attuned to
the winds, clouds, airs, breezes, but is now observing the heavens with his
hand-ground telescope from his own little observatory. And Stephen is found
riding in a deep muddy lane and so "earthy" that he has gathered the most
elemental products, mushrooms, as a treat for the household at Ashgrove
cottage.
It was wonderful to read the passage where the seabird is flushed
by crows, and be alerted to the deeper meaning that one Lissun
discovered. (To my everlasting shame, I can't remember who spied that,
forgive me.)
I read the domestic descriptions with keen attention to their
reference to Alice in Wonderland, thanks to Jerry Shurman, but would never
in a million years have smoked them without his insight. I might add that
perhaps Stephen's mushroom gathering is a reference to Alice's encounter
with a caterpillar:
"She stretched herself up on tiptoe, and peeped over the edge of the
mushroom, and her eyes immediately met those of a large blue caterpillar,
that was sitting on the top with its arms folded, quietly smoking a long
hookah, and taking not the smallest notice of her or of anything else. "
Jack is so proud of his cabbages, complains that he gets precious
little encouragement when he cuts one: "Always this silly cry of
caterpillars. Lord, if they had ate a tenth part of what we have ate in the
way of weevils and bargemen in our biscuit....they would thank Heaven
fasting for an honest green caterpillar." Then Stephen notices his mushroom
offerings flung onto the dunghill.
The "incongruous great objects never designed for a cottage" which Sophie's
mother had brought with her from Mapes Court reflect the episode in Alice
when she drinks from the little magic bottle, becoming tiny in relation to
the huge furniture.
I still can't believe how Jerry discovered this correlation with
Alice. I bet POB was hugging himself when he thought of this, and perhaps
he waited til death for someone to smoke it, in vain, until now.
I looked "Alice" up on the Web and found a beautiful site:
http://the-office.com/bedtime-story/alice-background.htm
with all the most popular historical and modern illustrations for the
book.
This is a great site of bedtime stories for parents and grandparents.
~~ Linnea Angermuller
MacKennaC@AOL.COM writes:
"The moon is gone,
Not long ago on some wildlife program or other, Mauritius Island and it's
efforts to save some very endangered species was featured. (Islands are
always problematic when new species are introduced, e.g. cats and rats.)
Mauritius it seems has evolved into a rather trendy resort:
http://www.maurinet.com/mauritius.html
Is it still in the South Atlantic waters off the coast of Africa? Not
nearer due to tectonic plate shifts or something?
The story of the Mauritian Wildlife Foundation and their efforts to save
several bird species can be found at
http://www.maurinet.com/wildlife.html
Alice
Way Way way off the coast, Alice.
Er, the other side of Africa, in the Indian Ocean.
Bill Nyden
Oh yes, Indian ocean, not Atlantic.
The Indian Ocean, surely -- unless those tectonic plates have been
shuffling themselves.
Bruce Trinque
Here I thought it was in the Indian Ocean, at appoximately 57E 20s.
Micheal Bloomberg, G.G.
Never argue with an idiot,
they drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Earlier today I wrote:
Is it still in the South Atlantic waters off the coast of Africa? Not
nearer due to tectonic plate shifts or something?
To which several people echoed Bill Nyden's reply:
Er, the other side of Africa, in the Indian Ocean.
Ah! Good. It *has* moved.
Alice, relieved
Lot of odd islands in the South Indian Ocean. Jutland, for instance:
Examine the battle of Jutland.
What conclusions can be drawn?
Jutland is a small island in the South Indian Ocean where, in the autumn
of 1932, one of the most significant modern battlefleet actions was
fought between the fleets of Italy and Japan.
Jutland, so named for its central peak which is oddly (almost obscenely)
shaped, was settled by the French late in the nineteenth century, at a
time when Greece and other minor European powers were snapping up the
last few colonial tidbits. The population is remarkably chauvinistic and
contributed an annual brigade to the French cause during the First World
War. The island, at the time of the battle, was beginning to recover
from a severe manpower shortage and was a popular stop for cruise
liners.
At the time of the Vienna Crisis, it became necessary for the
contributing nations to make a show of extending their various spheres
of influence in order to strengthen their hands at the later conference
and hopefully derive a position of power from the treaty to be signed
thereafter.
Accordingly Italy sent forth a "flag-showing" squadron of four modern
battleships and an aircraft-carrier to visit far-flung European
colonies, in blatant imitation of the earlier United States' "Great
White Fleet" of several years before. As they approached Jutland, where
a ball and open day were scheduled, lookouts reported a number of ships
approaching from the east.
This was the Japanese Fifth Battle Squadron, consisting of two
battleships, an escorting destroyer or two and a number of support
vessels. The Japanese, busily scouting out anchorages, facilities and
targets for the "Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere", had selected Jutland as
a recreation port to mark the end of a week of exercise.
As the two fleets identified each other, there was a flurry of activity
on the bridges of the Japanese and Italian flagships.
The two nations, nominal allies at the end of the First World War, were
now nominal enemies through the interplay of shifting alliances and the
League of Nations stance on the Ethiopian Intervention. Normally this
state of affairs was of little consequence, as the two countries had no
direct contact. What little trade there was continued through
intermediaries, if the paper conflict was observed at all. However, the
encounter of two well-armed fleets could not be shrugged aside.
Long-range radio communication with superiors being unavailable at that
time, the two admirals fell back on their standing orders, which
dictated the speedy engagement of hostile forces.
The Japanese Admiral Harpoon, quickly taking note of the disparity in
force, decided not to anchor and instead altered course to pass behind
the island, hoping to escape once out of sight of the Italian fleet.
However, while the speedy modern warships were able to interpose the
bulk of Jutland, the oilers and support vessels trailed behind and
attracted the attention of the Italians.
The Italian flagship, Spatlaese, led the Grappa, Crouchen, and Eagle in
line-ahead pursuit around the curve of the island, with their minor
vessels following.
Jutland, being but a small island, was not ideally suited to the
intended Japanese plan, and as the two fleets circled the central peak,
the respective flagships almost simultaneously sighted the slowest of
the enemy ships, bringing up the rear of the battle-lines. A strange
situation now ensued, with, in each case, a fast modern battleship out
of sight of all opposition except for a slow, unarmoured, and
essentially unarmed fleet auxiliary.
The first shots of the battle of Jutland were fired in defiance by the
Italian oiler Chianti Napoli . At the extreme range of the 5-inch stern
gun, the Italians opened fire on the huge grey super-dreadnought bearing
down on them. There was no no doubt as to the outcome, once the Kirin
returned fire with a salvo of ten 13.5 inch armour-piercing shells. The
sound of heavy naval gunfire boomed across the water, sounding the
death-knell of the tanker, which veered out of line and slowed to lie
dead in the water, a helpless target for the succeeding Japanese
battleships.
On the other side of the island, the Italian van then opened fire on the
elderly Japanese freighter Saki Maru, which promptly burst into flames
and exploded.
Over the next two hours the two fleets circled the island at their best
speeds, chewing up their slower and crippled opponents as they fell
behind. The tankers and storeships were the first to go, followed in
good time by the slower and older battleships. The ex-RN light carrier
Eagle, attempting to cut a corner, ran straight up onto a reef and was
pounded by the Japanese each time they passed. To this day the shoal is
known as Eagle Rock and the rusting remains shelter rich reserves of
lobsters.
A brave attempt by the Japanese destroyer Konga to overtake the Italians
failed when the enemy cruiser Crouchen , lagging behind with a ruptured
boiler, demolished the lighter ship with two torpedoes, only to be
picked off in her turn by the oncoming Akaga .
Eventually, as ship after ship fell out of line, the contest become a
test of speed between the modern battleships, each striving to outpace
the others. By 1734 the only ships remaining battleworthy were the two
flagships, Kirin and Spatlaese , each of which had vanquished a
succession of unequal opponents.
With all but the opposing flagships out of action, the result of the
battle hinged upon the skill of the gunnery teams. As the Kirin and
Spatlaese settled down to a one-to one gunnery duel, the importance of
quick teamwork and accurate spotting became critical. On the Italian
ship, the Fire Observation Officer (FOO), from his post high on the
foremast, observed the fall of shot and passed control orders to his
spotting-top crew, who calculated individual turret bearings and
elevations. The Italian FOO, Commander Pico, was about to acheive his
destiny in an act which would make him the object of naval comment
throughout the world.
Pico, hitherto a man of indifferent skills, gave the order for rapid
salvo fire on the Japanese ship. Observing the first salvo to fall
short, he increased the gun range, seeking a "straddle", a combination
of under and over shots guaranteed to cause a high percentage of target
hits. As the officer with the best observation, Pico was also tasked
with the job of reporting enemy fire and estimating point of impact so
that appropriate avoiding action could be taken if possible. As the
splashes of the Italian salvo subsided, the Japanese guns blinked once
as they sent ten heavy shells flying towards the Spatlaese .
Commander Pico, catching sight of the shells of the salvo as they
reached the apex of their trajectory, calculated that they would land
directly on his position on the Spatlaese , and promptly voided himself.
A second or so later most of the shells passed through the ship's masts
and exploded harmlessly in the sea beyond. One shell impacted the
spotting-top mainstay and exploded after the armour-piercing fuze's
sixth-second delay. Luckily the shrapnel caused only minor casualties,
but the blast from the mid-air explosion stripped away cloth and other
loose objects from exposed positions around the upperworks. The huge
battle ensign, the Admiral's last signal hoist, and the spotting team's
uniforms were shredded by the shock. The FOO's faeces rained down upon
the bridge, speckling the immaculate Italian uniforms of the officers.
Admiral Martini, his navigating officer and their aides and assistants
promptly hurried below to change their uniforms and renew the battle in
clean linen. Though these officers were largely killed when a 13.5 inch
shell from the next salvo exploded in the wardroom, the dazed but
vengeful Commander Pico maintained his post and directed the flagship's
fire with almost inspired brilliance. Salvo after salvo rained down upon
the hapless Japanese Kirin, silencing the remaining gun turrets and
starting a fire in the superstructure.
Admiral Harpoon wisely ordered his flag captain to break off the action
on receiving damage control reports. As Jutland sank below the horizon
in the gathering darkness, he set a course for the neutral port of
Honolulu in the Pacific, where he, his ship and his crew were interned
for the duration of the conflict.
Though the Italian fleet had been severely mauled, indeed decimated,
they retained possession of the battlefield and the resultant newspaper
reports enabled the Italian government to press for reduced ceramic
imposts at the conference. Though the trade treaty was set aside during
the Second World War and remains in abeyance to this day, the episode
was seen as a diplomatic coup throughout Europe.
The most significant lessons learnt from the battle of Jutland were
important in the great clash of arms only seven years later, though
thankfully for the security of the Free World, neither Japan nor Italy
followed up these conclusions, preferring to follow more orthodox and
conservative methods of warfare. Oddly enough, this is a common
characteristic of latter-day conflict, where the veterans of past wars,
usually risen to command ranks such as Admiral or General, will
endeavour to refight their previous battles, ignoring the vital lessons
of the opening actions. Here is a case where the more flexible doctrine
will often prevail at the expense of superior force or moral
superiority.
One of the most important conclusions, therefore, is that senior
officers may be safely ignored unless they possess recent battle
experience. In fact, there is a good case for the policy of eliminating
all officers over the age of forty on the declaration of war and
immediately (so as to gain from maximisation of training time) "bumping
up" all junior officers two notches in the rank structure.
Less vital conclusions are threefold:
Selection of leave ports may affect the destiny of nations.
Peter--
An important and solemn reminder! And I thought you were going to mention
Pico's counterpart on the Kirin, the Ballistic Artillery Reporter...
Charles
Truly, Peter, your command of naval history is daunting. Uh, just how many
bottles of chianti did you dispose of before beginning this essay?
Bruce Trinque
Many a tale came in by mail
Peter, you are dangerous, and while my admiration for you is
profound, I hope never to come within a hundred miles of you. Our
baseball date at Miller Park, that wonder of the Midwest, is off.
Gerry Strey (Prudent in Madison, Wisconsin)
peter.mackay@BIGPOND.COM writes:
3rd ult?
And Mary S
Ooh yes, I'd forgotten that charming piece of period. Thanks!
Not really so 'period'.
That terminology was in common ugage in formal business letters written
here(Ireland) up to the early 1980's. I hate to admit that I used it
myself!
alec
On pages 26-27 Norton paperback, Mrs Williams discussing
the mushrooms Stephen brought:
"Only this morning, only this very morning," she said, "I
caught the cook fingering a heap of toadstools. Can you
imagine such wickedness, Dr Maturin? To finger toadstools
and then to touch my grandchildren's food with her nasty
hands! There's a Welshwoman for you!"
As we know now, O'Brian's first unsuccessful marriage was
to a Welshwoman. Is he repeating the hostility of his
own family against his first wife, or is he playing on a
general stereotype of Welswomen as evil beings, or is POB
himself of the belief that his wife was wicked, or . . .?
I just put it down to that bigoted woman's continual ignorance ,stupidity
and bigotry. Using her to make the statement does not(to me) reflect on POB'
feelings
about the Welsh.
Blatherin' John B
Given that everything Mrs Williams says is offensive and malicious
I would say that it says more against the attitudes of some English
people than against the Welsh.
Martin @ home:
I don't have the books at hand with their pubdates, but I
imagine he created Bronwen when he was married to a wild
Welsh lass, and he put some words about Welsh women into
Mrs Williams' mouth after it became a no-go ?
Testimonies was first published as Three Bear Witness in April 1952.
Although I don't know when he actually wrote it seven years earlier in 1945
he was divorced in June, married Mary in July, and changed his name in
August; after which POB and Mary lived in Wales, in Cwm Croesor,
experiencing
the background for the novel. It seems reasonable to assume it was not
created while he was married to Elizabeth.
Rowen
Testimonies was first published as Three Bear Witness in April 1952.
Oooh! A link to Astrid!
Given that the surname "Williams" is not noted as being from East of the
Severn, I would venture to suggest that this is POB setting the cocked
hat on Mrs. Williams's inveterate stupidity and spite. She will cut off
the nose of her own ancestry to win a silly point. Try reading that passage
in a Welsh accent,and you will see it could be straight out of a Dylan
Thomas.
Mike French
Mrs. Williams's inveterate stupidity and spite. She will cut off
the nose of her own ancestry to win a silly point.
Her husband's.
savage, explosive, obstinate and cantankerous [HMSS 78]
Mary S
subject line should really read "toadstools."
Isn't the slam against the cook for the "toadstools" some kind of irony?
Maturin brought those wild mushrooms for the family and he watches without
saying anything as the cook gets sacked for having them in the kitchen. I
don't think the Welsh thing was POB's indictment of people from Wales, but
perhaps I am wrong?
I love mushrooms, but the love of my life can't bear them. Some
mycological friends promised to take me mushroom hunting in the spring.
Indeed, one is my friend who most reminds me of Maturin. The hobbit love
of mushrooms is one of the many things that continues to endear LOTR to
me...
Ruth A.
Which I think we shouldn't read any Alice or LOTR references into TMC for
the mushrooms--might as well start looking for biblical references any
time they eat fish...
I don't think that Mrs. Williams' fling against Welshwomen reflected POB's
views, but I do think that Susan Wenger might be on to something in
connecting the dismissed cook with his first wife, Elizabeth Jones. In
another passage from TMC p. 23, POB had a little fun in his choice of name,
The back door opened, to display a square, red-faced woman, the spit of
Mrs. Williams but for a cast in her left eye and, when she spoke, a shrill
Welsh voice. She had her box on her shoulder.
'Why, Bessie,' cried Jack. 'Where are you going? What are you about'.
Don Seltzer
Reading now that Jack's heart lifts when he see the "Africaine," coming to
help him pound the French under the RN captain, Corbett--"...and the actual
sight of her raised Jack's heart still higher: she was a thirty-six-gun
eighteen-pounder frigate, French-built of course, and one of the finest
sailers in the Royal Navy, particularly on a wind."
But I wonder what it is that makes the ships so good: the design? the
craftsmen? the shipyards? All of the above? On other counts, the British
seem to disparage the French in the books. It is surprising to learn that
the English, with their mastery of the sea, admired these French-built
ships. Why didn't they copy them and build even better ones?
~~ Linnea, a lubber through and through
One wonders. I suspect that the English shipyards weren't quite the
thing.
The main reason that the French kept losing ships to the British was
because they didn't get as much practice, being largely cooped up in
port by blockade. So in an even action the British would be able to
outsail and outfight the French.
The Frogs could make up for this to a certain degree by having better
weapon systems (read ships), but as I recently pointed out a better
weapon system needs to be employed to its full extent to gain an
advantage, and if the French weren't as practised as the British, well
all they were doing was giving ships away.
Imagine (most of you, Susan C excepted) if you met up with a Formula 1
driver and agreed to a race around a F1 circuit - you in his car, he in
your family sedan. Who would win?
You'd have the faster car, to be sure, but driving it to its full extent
would be way beyond you, and you'd come to grief at the first corner if
you went at anything like full speed. Whereas the professional racing
driver would hop in to the sedan, plant his foot and whiz around the
corners at a far greater speed than you would dare to try.
You'd almost certainly lose the race on the first lap. But if you had a
while to practice in the racing car, you would be able to do a lot
better.
The French didn't often get that chance to practise. Their ships of the
line stayed in port and rarely got any sort of a chance to exercise
together, whereas the British were always at sea, performing fleet
manouvres on a daily basis and attaining amazingly high standards.
Aha! That puts a new perspective on it for me. Thank you, Peter. I thought
the racing car vs. family sedan was a great analogy.
~~ Linnea (feeling left out, never having read LOTR--eek, such an
admission) (But I have read most of the other books mentioned. Should like
to re-read War and Peace someday.)
There was a discussion on this topic on the Norton POB Forum a while back,
the consensus was that the British ships were probably sturdier because
they had to be at sea on blockade duty in all North Atlantic weathers and
were
also expected to sail to the Far Side of the World, fully laden with
supplies. The French ships hung around in port and only dashed out to try
and invade Ireland or snap up a prize, so they were built more for speed
and less for carrying capacity and sea kindliness in a storm.
Adam Quinan
'Grab a chance and you won't be sorry for a might-have-been'
IIRC, another factor was that France had access to better
wood, cordage, supplies.
=====
Why would that necessarily be the case- except for british navy
miserliness. they had the merchant navy and the money to buy supplies from
all over
the world- Except for wood which would be bulky to transport,, they should
have
been able to compete. and they did seem to have enough wood to build
their SOL.
Blatherin' John B
Apparently, the French hull design was better and made for a faster ship.
Their guns and gunners were possibly better. The British knew this and
tried to copy French ship design, but not always with success.
The British definitely had more practice. Their ships lived at sea, but
this was a two edged sword. Ships at sea take a beating, and need repairs,
so the French ships, sitting in port were frequently in better repair.
The French didn't help their cause when during the French revolution, they
killed many of their own officers.
The Americans observing all of this are said to have built a navy with
French bottoms (designs) American wood (this was a significant advantage
over a de-forested Britain) and British trained sailors.
Randy Hees
Linnea writes:
It is surprising to learn that the English, with their mastery of the sea,
admired these French-built ships. Why didn't they copy them and build even better
ones?
Well, actually the British DID copy quite a number of those French-built
ships -- and sometimes Spanish ones and those of other navies. Although
the notion of the superiority of French-built frigates seems quite popular
in
nautical fiction, from my reading it appears to me that this sentiment was
far from universal. To a considerable extent the Royal Navy recognized
that these French frigates were usually rather lightly built to stand up to
the
kind of duty necessitated by blockade duty and that often they lacked the
hull storage capacity required for very long voyages. The reality is that
French frigates were designed for a different role than that of a Royal
Navy frigate, staying closer to home with less exposure to the elements.
Bruce Trinque
One of our knowledgeable lissums explained that philosophies were totally
different- french went for Frigates and quick sorties- british built for
long voyage and blockades the British Frigate captains appreciated the
French
ships, but the LOA disdained them in the grand scheme.
I mentioned once that Aubrey said the French built better ships and the
americans were better overall navy men- so why was the RN so exalted ?-
Blatherin' John B
The Royal Navy men and ships were exalted because, in the long run, they
beat everyone else and controlled the seas. Individually there were some
occasions when their ships were beaten by another Navy's ships but not very
often and to no lasting effect. Whether it was by skill, numbers or
persistence the RN performed its function admirably.
Adam Quinan
Linnea
It occurs to me that all through the books, there is note taken of
how well the French build their ships and how some French captains and crews
are very good sailors.
Well, that's a complex question not susceptible to a simple answer; they
were indeed copied by the British and used for derivitives when
appropriate, but usually adapted to British tactical and strategic needs
which were different from the French priorities; it depends too on what
type of ship we are considering - First rates? Frigates? Cutters?
French vessels were not necessarily better than British, they emphasised
different qualities in the design compromise which is always present in
shipbuilding; you can improve one quality, but always at the cost of
another, and French frigate designers, for example (since the canon is
centred around a small French frigate), chose to be superior in speed in
lighter conditions OFF the wind rather than good seakeepers which would
make well and fast to windward on heavy conditions, in which weather the
British frigate might well catch its French counterpart and then be both a
better gun platform and more manoeverable. Again, the British frigate
captains and the Admiralty had different agenda; French frigate prizes were
popular amongst British captains because of their reputation for speed
which may equate to their winning prize money, but less so with the
Admiralty since they were lighter-built and hence expensive to maintain,
were worse sea-boats in all weathers for the months and years at a stretch
required for them to stay at sea on blockade, and could stow less stores,
limiting their range and endurance.
But this is just scratching the surface of the subject.
Regards,
Roger Marsh
Bruce Trinque wrote:
To a considerable extent the Royal Navy
recognized that these French frigates were usually rather lightly built to
stand up to the kind of duty necessitated by blockade duty and that often
they lacked the hull storage capacity required for very long voyages. The
reality is that French frigates were designed for a different role than
that
of a Royal Navy frigate, staying closer to home with less exposure to the
elements.
Echoed a century later in the design of dreadnoughts. The British had a
global empire to defend and their battleships had to accommodate large
crews for long voyages in a variety of climates. The German ships had
crews who usually lived ashore in barracks and were specifically
designed for relatively short cruises in the Continental littoral. Hence
they were better able to fight a sea battle, not having to carry so much
extra.
Having said that, and there is no doubt that the German ships were
better fighting vessels, especially after catering for the defects
exposed at Dogger Bank and elsewhere, they still lost most encounters.
Jutland might have been a tactical win for the High Seas Fleet,
especially considering the disparity in numbers, but it was a strategic
defeat.
This time it wasn't the superiority in experience and skill, for both
sides were fairly even in that regard, but the fact that the Germans
couldn't afford to lose too many ships otherwise the disparity would be
too great to even consider battle except in a carefully planned ambush.
Jutland might have been a tactical win for the High Seas Fleet,
especially considering the disparity in numbers, but it was a strategic
defeat.
which side had most? The Japanese or the Italians?
Blatherin' John B
As I recall from some of the background books I have read, the french
ships were a bit faster, but the british ships could turn quicker and were
better in a rough sea. However the quality of british ships varied greatly
according to who and how they were built and how long since they had a
full refit.
The british had more practice in sailing than the french, and that was the
probably the biggest factor.
Greg Edwards
Robert Gardiner, in his "Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars", discusses in
several places the influence of French designs and also comparisons of the
relative quality of French ships versus English designs. Emulation of
French hulls was more a phenomenon of the French Revolutionary Wars rather
than
the Napoleonic. Gardiner comments: "In the field of frigate design, by the
time war was renewed in 1803 none of Britain's enemies had anything radical
to
offer ... It is very noticeable that none of the many french prizes in
Royal Navy service turned in exceptional performances, and from surviving
Sailing
Quality reports it appears that despite the acknowledged British skill in
'ship tunint', many ex-French frigates were not quite the equal of the best
British-built performers. French ships were widely believed to be
excellent
sailors downwind, but vulnerable because less weatherly than their pursuers.
Furthermore, close-hauled they do not seem to have sailed particularly
fast: 9-9 1/2 knots is the best to be found in surviving reports. They also
carried their batteries slightly lower than British frigates and tended to
be more lively in a seaway, so were poorer fighting machines in consequence.
On the other hand, as British ships had become longer, they had lost their
traditional superiortiy in handiness, any advantage in manoevering now
largely depending on the relative skill of the crews. Although the British
had removed riders from their ships and experimented with novel forms of
fastening during these years, French ships were still regarded as too
lightly built; and they consistently failed to live up to British stowage
requirements for long cruises. It is difficult to escape the conclusion
that while British frigate design had improved immeasurably in two decades,
France in 1815 had not moved on much since 1815."
Bruce Trinque
There will be probably many more learned answers to this, but let me point
out just a few things. First: the British had a very serious problem with
wood for their ships - England being already deforested. That's why ships
built in India and other colonies had a great reputation, which I believe
is also mentioned by POB a few times.
The French excelled in lighter, faster ships, like frigates, the advantage
in the ships of the line was not that obvious.
The French Navy suffered a lot in the political turmoil of the
Revolution. Many officers were of course of aristocratic birth, and lots
of them lost their heads. The chaos following the fall of monarchy and the
period of revolutionary terror did lots of damage to the navy, human
expertise cannot be rebuilt as easily and as quickly as the ships
themselves. RN crews generally excelled at gunnery, and as Jack well knew,
it was a decisive factor in naval warfare.
Interestingly, French privateers had excellent crews and were often more
formidable opponents than the regular French navy ships of comparable
size.
Pawel
http://www.gen.emory.edu/cmm/people/staff/pgolik.html
Linnea wrote, quoting The Canon:
"Reading now that Jack's heart lifts when he see the "Africaine," coming
to help him pound the French under the RN captain, Corbett--"...and the
actual sight of her raised Jack's heart still higher: she was a
thirty-six-gun
eighteen-pounder frigate, French-built of course, and one of the finest
sailers in the Royal Navy, particularly on a wind."
Actually, "Jack" is wrong here to some degree; "Africaine" was rated 38/40
in British service (some conflict of information here), was fast off the
wind like many French-designed and built frigates but comparatively
leewardly and not particularly fast "on a wind." The average
British-concept larger frigate such as one of the "Ledas" or "Livelys"
would have both fore-reached on her and sailed faster to windward,
particularly as the wind got up, so could probably have outsailed her on a
wind in medium to rough conditions - other things being equal, state of
rigging, quality of command and crew, cleanness of bottom/degree of fouling
and drag, &c., which are always other considerations to take into account.
"Africaine" was, however, more suited than most French frigates to British
operational requirements, having a fuller midships section than typical (as
per Gardiner) so enabling her to store 6 months provisions; her length to
breadth and to depth ratios were however nevertheless fairly typically
French, longer and shallower than the British approach, giving her the
typical speed/leewardliness/manoeuvrability/speed of turning, tacking and
wearing characteristiscs of a French frigate design as compared to a
British one.
Regards,
Roger Marsh
Going through TMC, I was delighted to see that Maturin's fit of anger at
the way secrets cd not be kept includes the words, "All, all of a piece
throughout."
Because in PC, you'll remember that he tells Diana, when they discuss her
chances of hunting down a husband, "Your chase has a beast in view."
In both books, Maturin was quoting, of course, Dryden's Secular Masque:
All, all of a piece throughout
That new "age" by the way, was to come in with the year 1700. The poem is
fun to read in the context of the century just past.
===================
In another context, it's pleasant to see Jack quoting Shakespeare,
correctly for once, when he says, early in that same visit from Stephen,
talking of
lunatics: "they squeak and gibber in the market place." Just why POB gives
this quotation, I dunno. It leads to nothing that I can see. You remember:
speaking of the supernatural warnings of the death of Caesar: The graves
stood tenantless/and the sheeted dead did squeak and gibber in the Roman
streets." Squeak and gibber--one of my favorite phrases that I trot out
from time to time; it's pleasant to think that maybe POB did the same, and
just
threw the words to Jack as a favor. (Or is this a faint, a vy faint, look
ahead at little Brigit's early days?)
====================
Jack finds out early on about Sophie's disinclination for two-back-beasting
it. A year or so ago, the Gunroom had a discussion of the bull as a
stand-in for Jack in that same scene: Jack, staring at the cow, says, "the
fact of
the matter is that she refuses the bull." Elsewhere in the canon, Jack is
referred to as "Yardo, the parish bull."
I disremember, however, if we saw that Jack's stand-in not only by the
animal kingdom, but among the plants as well. Consider Sophie again, that
rosy
darling. "Here is Sophie's garden," Jack tells Maturin. "It will be full of
roses, come next June. Do you think they look a trifle spindly, Stephen...
I don't have much luck with ornamental plants: that was supposed to be a
lavender hedge, do you see? [And then the sentence that clinches all.] The
roots come from Mapes."
It's only a little later that he tells Maturin that there is no chance of
another child coming along, ever.
Charlezzzz
More, more!
Susan, cheerful after reading this fine post.
Maturin was quoting, of course,
Dryden's Secular Masque:
In another context, it's pleasant to see Jack
quoting Shakespeare, correctly
for once,
Maybe POB likes to display his knowledge thereof.
Ray McP
Slight spoiler for HMS Surprise below:
And in HMSS Stephen quotes almost exactly the passage you mention, just
after they have buried Mr. Stanhope on Pulo Batak:
"Jack looked out of the stern window at the distant, receding land, dull
purple now, with a rainstorm beating down on it. He said 'We came on a
fool's errand.'
Stephen said, as though in reply,
All all of a piece...etc." (p. 273, Norton)
At the end of the scene Jack, with his mind on getting home before Sophie
can marry the parson, says "You should not have said that about lovers,
Stephen."
It must have been an important piece for O'Brian, for him to quote it in
three different books!
Kathryn Guare
Ray McPherson
Maybe POB likes to display his knowledge thereof.
It's fun. A lesser writer would have drawn arrows for
the reader, with something like "as Shakespeare said . .. "
Sometimes I think POB wrote for the sheer joy of the
writing, and didn't give a fig whether the reader smoked
his allusions. That's why it's such a joy when we do.
- Susan
Spoilers follow, of course.
Chapter 1 of TMC has Jack talking to Maturin about the married state, and
though he won't come out with any statement downing Sophie, it's clear,
both from what little he does say, and from other hints that POB gives us,
that
she is like that cow who has nothing to say to the bull. No more children
to come--ever.
In yet-to-come books we make a few discoveries: that Philip was engendered
on the night of Jack's departure, and we learn that Diana and Clarissa
eventually give Sophie some advice on how to improve matters. "I thought I
just had to lie there and let it happen," says Sophie, or words to that
effect.
It's interesting to look back into Post Captain and see that Jack and Diana
have indeed been at it (that unfortunate gift of perfume from Maturin!)
So now here are a couple of quotations from further on in the canon. The
first is from Desolation Island: Sophie, talking to Jack in Chapter 1,
speaking of Diana, says "After all, she had shown herself to be -- well, to
be, what shall I say? -- a light woman."
Jack tries to justify Diana (and himself) a little. "the older I grow, the
less I think of capers of that kind," and, of course, gets himself on
dangerous ground. Almost immediately, a POB animal appears. Though it
merely carries the hairdresser for Mrs. Willams, it is "a terrible
animal...a
dull-blue creature that might have been a pony if it had any ears." Its
appearance seems to save Jack from bumbling himself into more terrible
dull-blue trouble.
And yet it seems that the "light woman" reference sticks in Jack's craw.
Because, a full book later, in Fortune of War, when he catches Diana as she
jumps into the small boat as they escape from Boston, he says, "Nobody
could call you a light woman, Diana." On my first few readings of FOW, I
took
that merely to be a betise on Jack's part, the kind of damn fool thing a man
might say to a former lover who really *is* a light woman...but when we
remember
Sophie's use to those same words, I think we might read Jack's inner
meaning:
"Diana, dear promiscuous gentlemanly lady, my wife doesn't understand you.
Or me either, for that matter."
Charlezzzz
Charlezzzz@AOL.COM wrote:
In yet-to-come books we make a few discoveries: that
Philip was engendered on
the night of Jack's departure,
George.
Maybe Philip also : } but definitely George.
I blush to correct as estimable a gentleman as Charlezzzz, but surely you
mean it was George, not Philip, who was
(tiny TMC spoiler)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
begotten on the night of Jack's departure for the Mauritius command. And
this all goes back to POB's masterful use of understatement. When we last
see Jack and Sophie together in TMC, they have been arguing, and he
resolves to leave that evening, whereupon:
"Sophie then returned to arguments against Jack's leaving quite so soon:
tomorrow morning would be far, far better in every way; they could not
possibly have his clothes ready before then...(Stephen slips out to avoid a
scene)...when he came back he found Jack at the door, staring up at the
scudding clouds, with Sophie, looking exceptionally beautiful in her
anxiety and emotion, beside him. 'The glass is rising,' said Jack
thoughtfully,
'but the wind is still due south...and when you consider where she lays,
right up the harbour, there is not a hope of getting her out on this
tide.'"
A lesser writer would have made the scene more explicit, but POB leaves
it at that...Consider where she lays... Then at the end of the book,
Pullings
congratulates Jack on his son.
-RD
Rosemary Davis
When we last see Jack and Sophie together in TMC, they have been
arguing, and he resolves to leave that evening, whereupon:
"Sophie then returned to arguments against Jack's
leaving quite so soon:
[snip]
'The glass is rising,' said
Jack thoughtfully,
Well, that's one way to put it
Rosemary Davis says,
I blush to correct as estimable a gentleman as
Charlezzzz, but surely you
mean it was George, not Philip, who was
(tiny TMC spoiler)
Just so.
Rosemary (and a dozen other Lissuns are correct.) I have programmed my dear
little Mac to write one thousand times, "It was George engendered there,
Philip elsewhere," and I trust it will no longer conflate the two.
Charlezzzz, unbowed
What did it mean when Stephen said, "You cannot blame the bull because the
frog burst: the bull has no comprehension of the affair? "
I am sure it is a reference to the fable, by Aesop?, of the frog who thinks
that he is the biggest and best in the pond. Then a bull comes down to
drink and the frog attempts to puff himself up to match or exceed the size
of the
bull. Unfortunately he bursts and dies in the attempt. The bull is the
innocent cause of the frog's demise merely by being there.
Adam Quinan
The reference is probably to a fable by La Fontaine, per Aesop, about a
Frog and a Bull. The frog decides he wants to be as big as the bull, kind
of
inflates himself in the effort, and bursts in the attempt. Morale, more or
less, accept your fate, stay as you were meant to be. And the frog's fate
isn't the fault of the bull.
Lois
It comes from a La Fontaine fable. Here's a sort of description
http://www.uqtr.uquebec.ca/~bougaief/Elderhostel/Fable/frog-grief.html
Kerry
Kerry Webb
The attributions of this fable to Aesop and La Fontaine remind me
of
one of Suzannes most prized possessions - a CDROM telling the story
of the Tortoise and the Hare. It comes in three languages:
1. English: "Aesop's Fable The Tortoise and the Hare"
2. German: "Aesops Fabel Die Schildkrote und der Hase"
3. French: "D'apres la fable de Jean de La Fontaine Le Lievre et la
Tortue"
It would be unworthy to cast any aspersions about national
character
from this - so I shall just leave them hanging in the air for whoever
wishes to take them up...
Suzanne particularly loves this story as it contains her all-time
favourite joke. "Why did the chicken cross the road?" She tells this
joke to everybody she meets, to universal confusion.
Martin @ home:
Having finally returned from my holiday trip abroad, I am now back on
"MAIL" and trying to catch up with discussions that took place in the
interim through use of the archives. I hope everyone had a rousing
holiday and a good LOTR day! (resolutely avoiding becoming involved in
any Tolkien threads; there are listservs for that sort of thing . . .)
Frustratingly, I find that neither the Groupread nor the regular
discussion archive yet contains much record of whatever chat has been
taking place surrounding TMC; I assume there was some pent-up verbosity
on this subject since we did hold off on opening it! From my own
post-it notes, a few fairly trivial questions if I may (apologies if any
of this has already been dealt with):
1.) p. 18 of TMC: Jack says "I had news of him [i.e. Killick] from
Collard of Ajax; he sent a sharks' backbone walking-stick for the
twins." Whazzat? To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing
as a "shark's backbone" (any naturalists on the list able to back me up
on this?). I wonder whether this makes reference to some object that
was in those days known as a shark's backbone, in the same way that
people called narwhal's tusks unicorn horns. Any enlightenment?
2.) As always, I find POB's dry humor in delightful full swing here
(and a thank-you to Jerry Shulman for his preemptive post, some time
ago, concerning Lewis Carrolisms in TMC . . .). One example: pp.
100-101, where Jack is in a joyful daze at the news of his pendant:
"Jack looked decently solemn, but his mind was swimming in happiness, a
happiness made all the more wholly concrete, real and tangible when the
flag-lieutenant's recollections of an occasion upon which he too had
eaten something came to an end and Jack could cut the tape and see that
his orders were addressed to Commodore Aubrey." (It's that "an occasion
upon which he too had eaten something" that delights me!)
3.) One final curiosity, then I will spare you any more musings for the
time being: On p. 141 Stephen and his colleague McAdam take a stroll
through the island's "tortoise-park, where the disconsolate French
superintendent stood thigh-deep among some hundreds of his charges."
What is this tortoise-park, some sort of farm or game preserve? Is it
like the "Turtle Farm" that I once visited on the Grand Cayman, where
thousands of sea turtles are lovingly raised from hatchlings to
maturity, and then sold off to the market?
That's enough for now, I think! Take care all.
A complacent pragmatical worldly fellow (HMSS p. 196) . . .
Steve Ross
a sharks' backbone walking-stick for the twins." Whazzat? To the best of
my knowledge, there is no such thing as a "shark's backbone"
A shark, being a vertebrate animal, does indeed possess a backbone,
probably cartilaginous, like the rest of its skeleton. A Google image
search yielded one picture of a fossilized shark spine (at a URL so long it
wrapped TWICE, so I do not copy it here). It is oddly smooth, for a
backbone, but clearly segmented; one wonders how it could be transformed
into a walking stick.
Matt Cranor
3.) One final curiosity, then I will spare you any more musings for the
time being: On p. 141 Stephen and his colleague McAdam take a stroll
through the island's "tortoise-park, where the disconsolate French
superintendent stood thigh-deep among some hundreds of his charges."
What is this tortoise-park, some sort of farm or game preserve? Is it
like the "Turtle Farm" that I once visited on the Grand Cayman, where
thousands of sea turtles are lovingly raised from hatchlings to
maturity, and then sold off to the market?
Grand funny bits, indeed! I'll speak only to the last bit though -- I
would
guess that the tortoise-park would be a place where tortoises are kept
pending sale to ships as food. Sort of a corral. I think the concept of
"game preserve" didn't exist yet.
Astrid Bear
Game preserves had existed for several hundred years as a form of
preserving
game for the nobility to slaughter at will. They were preserved from us
commoners who would have gladly slaughtered at will for food. Hence the New
Forest and Royal Parks plus the various Highlands that were enclosed for
the
shooting of Grouse and Red Deer.
Stephen Chambers
What is this tortoise-park, some sort of farm or game
preserve? Is it like the "Turtle Farm" that I once visited
on the Grand Cayman, where thousands of sea turtles are
lovingly raised from hatchlings to maturity, and then sold
off to the market?
No, it is a place to park tortoises prior to them being consumed. The
map of the town shows the actual site(s) as "Parc des Tortues", which
puzzled me mightily until I read TMC, when it all clicked into place.
The sense is like an artillery camp or a car park, rather than any sort
of garden.
Gerry Strey wrote:
My own guess is that POB omitted much reference to Nelson because
introducing a real-life character who is famous even to the
non-nautical might have overshadowed Jack and Stephen.
I think this is quite right; besides, POB seems to me to have preferred
basing his tales only loosely, if at all, on "real" historical incidents.
Therefore a battle as well-known as Trafalgar wouldn't have suited his
purposes too well, would it?
Sometimes, as in TMC, we do find quite a close mirroring of actual
historical incidents; but it has seemed to me that others share my feeling
that this book is not quite up to the standard of some of the others.
Certainly, to me it is a bit "thinner" than any of the other First Five
(The Aubrey-Maturin Pentateuch)! Is this because the use of the "plot" of
the Mauritius Campaign gives it a paint-by-numbers feel?
Having said that, I suppose I should examine my own feelings more
carefully. Would I feel the same way about this book if I had not known
about the historical basis behind it?
Steve Ross
So, what is the collective judgment of the group on Lord Clonfert? Is he,
as the Norton blurb would have it, merely a "pleasure-seeking dilettante?"
Is he just vain and silly, and therefore inconsequential? Or is he
something a little deeper, maybe even a little tragic, and someone whose
deeds (or attempted deeds) call for our admiration, despite what we may
think of their motivation? What exactly IS that motivation, anyway? In
sum, does Clonfert have, in any measure, what one of our characters might
call "bottom"?
If these subjects have already been "done," as I imagine may be the case, I
would appreciate some precis of earlier gunroom discussions and/or pointers
to places where they may be found in the archives! Thanks.
----------------------
"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims!" -- DI, p. 67
Steve Ross
Clonfert has always seemed to me to be the core of TMC, even more than
the campaign itself. His self-imposed rivalry with Jack, his endless
self-doubts, the fascination his emotional and mental processes have
for Stephen, the effects his actions have on the plot--take him away
and what would the story be like?
Gerry Strey
Dull Dull Dull, is the answer to that Gerry.
TMC is probably one of my least favorite of the early books, and in fact
this was only the second time I read it. Clonfert is never a very
sympathetic
creature, but watching his repeated failures, and moreso the way Stephen
waxes hot and cold about him seem very true to life. Most writers make bad
guys clearly bad guys, but POB has Stephen sympathetic to, charmed even, by
a man who would do Jack a bad turn if he could (and had in the past done
just
that). Clonfert is a good picture of the socially insecure, a man never
sure what tack to take, but canny enough to know when he's failing and shift
tactics.
All in all I found this a more enjoyable read than the first one, probably
because the general quality of my reading material has risen so much, and I
was able to follow the battles with a little more educated eye.
Sarah
And the Clonfert story would be much weaker without the
other side of the coin, Corbett. It's the contrast that
tells the story, or balances it at least, I think.
I wondered when the discussion would finally get around to Clonfert.
With Clonfert, isn't POB exploring further the type of three-way
relationship he created in M&C with James Dillon? Aubrey and Clonfert
should have so much in common, but Clonfert's need to emulate and compete
with Jack turns him into a rival rather than a friend.
I've been toying with the idea that at least part of Clonfert's
personality comes from someone POB knew intimately. Consider the
following excerpts:
"Stephen, you should know all about Clonfert. He is a countryman of yours,
an eminent chap, I dare say in Ireland."
"Sure, it is an Irish title, but Clonfert is as much an Englishman as you
are yourself. The family name is Scroggs... Clonfert's grandfather,
now, was a mere - [interrupted]"
Much later, Stephen writes in his diary,
And many books later, in TGS:
Somewhere, I recall reading that Clonfert's grandfather was a furrier. Can
anyone help me find the passage? Of course a certain Carl Russ, who
emigrated to England, was also a furrier.
Don Seltzer
As usual, don, your insight into and knowledge of the canon dazzles.
Gerry Strey
Consider the following passage:
[Stephen writing about Mrs. Wogan in his journal, DI p. 131:] "She knows
that I am an Irishman, who would wish to see my country independent; and
that I abhor all domination, all planting of colonies."
I'll grant that this comes from a later novel than the one now under
discussion, and therefore, _sensu stricto_, should not be part of the
picture yet. It is also true that in this episode Stephen is being very
careful about what and how much he lets Wogan know about him, for his
own espionage-related purposes. But this self-description seems
consistent with Stephen's views and character throughout the Canon, and,
putting aside the disinformation aspect of it, I think Stephen is
sincere in saying that he hates "domination" and the "planting of
colonies." That is part of the whole picture of why he hates Napoleon
and why he does what he does, isn't it? If we agree with all that,
then:
What think we of Stephen's activities on behalf of the British in
helping them wrest control of Mauritius and La Reunion from the French?
Of course, it is all part of the overall campaign to defeat
"Buonapartism," and of course, we know how Stephen, in service of that
aim, is sometimes forced to do things that he might otherwise not do
(ref. recent discussions of ambiguity and moral "gray areas") . . . but
is that too simple?
I was moved to ask these questions by S.'s political activities, for
instance, the destruction of the tax records (TMC p. 156:
" 'Those are my tax-gatherer's records,' said Stephen, beside him. 'If
that does not render us beloved, the Bourbonnais are hard to please.' "
The destruction of the tax records is part of the effort to "Win the
Hearts and Minds" of the Mauritians, by presenting the British arrival
as a liberation, right? I guess it is believable that such propaganda
would have been part of the overall effort; but in reality, as far as
the people of Mauritius are concerned (whether that means the
"Bourbonnais" colonists or the native population), they were basically
exchanging one master for another. And, it being part of imperial
policy dating as far back as the Romans to make the empire pay the price
of its own governance, I would expect those "tax-gatherer's records" to
be resurrected in one form or another, sooner or later.
So what I am asking is this: Was Stephen conscious of betraying his own
principles in helping the British extend their empire in this region?
The end may justify the means, but do we have any evidence that he was
at all conflicted about this (by contrast with his self-torment over
other issues, frequently throughout the Canon)? Or shall we just
conclude that "Catalan independence may be one thing, but in the world
of Aubrey and Maturin it is natural--and morally unproblematical--to
expect non-European peoples to be ruled by France, Britain or one of the
other colonial powers"?
--------------------
"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims!" -- DI p. 67
Steve Ross
Ah, but the trick is to destroy all the records of taxes owed - that makes
the folks grateful - but not destroy the records of landowners, so that you
can then prepare to tax them yourselves: the price of civilization and all
that. Sort of a one-time tax rebate(!)
As for the conflicts within SM, well, he did sign on as a Surgeon/Warrant
Officer in (and and active intelligence agent for) the RN and has to do
what his duty requires of him. He does from time to time subvert his duties
a
little - such as by refusing certain pressed people for the ship out of
kindness, but that's only in little things, I think.
DAGHDA Jim
IMHO Stephen is the archtypical pragmatist. He knows that the Islands are
ruled by the French and he passionately believes that the French rule is
evil incarnate. There is little chance that they can cast off the French
yoke on their own, and the British yoke is, theoretically at least, softer
than the alternative (witness his clearly stated abhorrence of the notion
of French "assistance" in freeing the Irish). A successful campaign
advances
the defeat of Napoleon, moves the islanders a step closer to eventual
freedom, and (coincidently?) advances the career of his closest friend.
Clearly, this choice is the lesser of the possible weevils.
DJD
Some light on Maturin's feelings on this score is shed in CLARISSA OAKES
aka
THE TRUELOVE in the course of the campaign against the Melanisian queens
opposite number, who is being supported by the French via the rich
philosopher -- is it Dutouard -- I speak from memory here -- who Steven
observes would not hesitate to spread bloody murder in the name of his wish
to set up a Rousseau-ish democracy. Steven, as I recall, tells Jack that he
dislikes interfering in the lives of others on general principle, but will
allow the Queen to express her love for King George rather than suffer
being
eaten. I paraphrase, but Steven is essentially opting for the lesser
weevil,
in the context of ideological wretched excess, of which the worst is
Napoleon, and Dutuoard is his stand in.
Best.
Susan wrote:
And the Clonfert story would be much weaker without the
other side of the coin, Corbett. It's the contrast that
tells the story, or balances it at least, I think.
The purpose of introducing these characters, then, was no doubt manifold;
but, in addition to exploring the complexity of human motivation, O'Brian
presumably intended this as a study in the complications of high command
(or "management" if you will); what is even the best commander to do, when
his tools are such quirky, fallible human beings, and when they are
themselves accustomed to a free hand in ruling their own fiefs?
Steve Ross
Very nicely put. It sure helps that Jack Aubrey was made
acting Commodore for a while there
When the Boadicea first arrives in Simons Bay from England, and Jack is
about to cross to the flagship, he notices that the boat's crew is
incomplete.
Nine guns she fired, the reply due to a captain, and after the ninth the
Boadicea's signal-midshipman, young Weatherall, piped, 'Flag signalling,
sir." Then his voice broke to a harsh bass as he went on, 'Captain repair
aboard flag.'
"Acknowledge, ' said Jack. "Lower away the gig. Where's my coxswain? Pass
the word for my coxswain.'
'I am sorry, sir,' said Johnson, blushing. ' Moon is drunk'
'Damn him,' said Jack 'Crompton, jump into the gig. Mr Hill are these all
my papers? Every last
one?'....................................snip...............................
...................................................................
"Boat ahoy?' asked the Raisonable.
'Boadicea,' replied the acting coxswain in a voice of brass; and then more
quietly he said, 'Rowed of all'. The gig kissed against the tall flank of
the flagship, the sideboys ran down with their scarlet man-ropes, the bosun
started his call, and Jack was piped aboard. ................
And that's it for poor old Crompton! PO'B makes him take over at a moment's
notice, do the job he's thrust into, and then lets him disappear without
trace. Even the meticulous Mr Brown gnaws him and treats him with 'tempt
(in my copy of PASC, at any rate). No mention of him replacing the
unreliable
Moon, and absolutely no chance at all of him hanging onto the job after Big
Beautiful Barrett Bonden bounces back on board!
"Ready, Aye, Ready" that's the motto and that's the spirit. Do your duty
and fail at your peril. If you can't take a joke you should never have
joined.
And it's not just O'Brien and Brown, Forester has a similar situation but
he doesn't even bother to give the poor bugger a name. I'm prepared to bet
that it was a cousin of Crompton's that was handed a lead-line and thrust
out
onto the chains when, I think it was, the Sutherland was creeping along the
coast and everyone else on board was enjoying themselves bombarding the
column of Italian conscripts. At least Horny had the decency to savage
someone when, eventually, long after they had turned away from the shore,
he became aware of the repeated chant, 'No bottom, no bottom on this line'.
Listmates lets hear it for the Cromptons of the canon. Fill your glasses,
the toast is "The Forgotten Men"
Mal Listmates lets hear it for the Cromptons of the canon. Fill your glasses,
the toast is "The Forgotten Men"
In bumpers!
Vanessa, somewhat resigned to being a Crompton, in the Grand Scheme of
Things
Come, come, Nessie, how can that be so? Not only are you a member of "The
List That Knows All", but you also belong to "The List That Never Forgets"
Mal
Let us drink to the Unknown Sailors of Naval Fiction!
How deftly POB plies his wit. Near the end of "The
Mauritius Command," one of the LESS humorous books in the
canon once past Chapter One: Jack is ebullient at the
news of his son, everyone is congratulating him at
dinner, and Stephen's thoughts have wandered during the
course of Jack's cheerful flow.
"When the long meal was over, when the King, Mrs Aubrey
and young Stupor Mundi had been drunk in bumpers of
luke-warm port . . . "
I LOVE it. Young Stupor Mundi. Not another word about
little George, but that "young Stupor Mundi" says it all
for Stephen's mood.
- Susan
Funny you should bring this up right now, Susan. I just this morning
finished reading George Eliot's *Middlemarch.* The only baby born in this
lengthy book to a major character (or more accurately, the sister of a
major
character) is referred to as "the infantine Bouddha" (his parents being his
most avid worshippers). Eventually we learn the "Bouddha's" name is Arther.
Incidentally, though *Middlemarch* takes place ca. 1830 (written 1880), it
depicts the lives of rural Englishmen and -women very much like Jack and
Sophie -- and the vast and complex impingements of class and social mores,
and the behavior and attitudes that result. It's very interesting to read
it in light of characters/time/cultural setting of the canon.
Marian
The guineaman, Intrepid Fox, that the Boadicea retook just late enough in
the day to be salvage was loaded with goodies including "grains of
Paradise.
Mary A
Google turned up an informative site. Grains of paradise are the
seeds of aframomum melegueta, a plant of the ginger family found in
West Africa. They have a hot and spicy flavor and were used as a
pepper substitute before the development of sea routes to India made
black pepper less expensive. At one time used for beer flavoring, the
seed is still used in North African cooking.
Gerry Strey
One of the varieties of beer Sam Adams produced, a couple years ago
anyway, included grains of paradise.
RCH
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes.
H. Thoreau: Walden
Catching up on the Clonfert thread.
Just doing a bit of googling this Sunday morning- and refreshing memories
from my distant school days of the various monastries founded around the
county.
CLONFERT (yes clonfert) was founded by St Brendan. Of Brendan voyage fame.
Betya POB had done some research on Brendan,Stephen specifically mentions
him.
Was the use of the name 'Clonfert' a mini tribute to the Voyager?
Also the nearest 'large' town to 'Clonfert' would be Ballinasloe 10 miles
from the cathedral. Stephen seems to have been there(Ballinasloe.
Maybe no connection,but thought I'd mention it.
alec-from a demesne west of the Curragh of Kildare.
further information:-
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02758c.htm
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~clonfert/history.htm
Alec and I are of one mind!
He must have missed my "Clonfert" post of a couple of weeks ago which
contained the same information about St. Brendan the Navagator, the
cathedral
at Clonfert, and its proximity to Ballinasloe!
As for Brendan's boat, the adventurer, Tim Severin, back in the seventies,
had a replica built from the specifications in Brendan's "Navagatio", in
Kerry, where the original was launched.
A marvelous adventure!
Jean A.
It looks as if I have gained something of a reputation as the old
stick-in-the-mud, plodding along with my dog-eared POB volumes, while
the rest of the gang chats it up at the bar! I guess I am going to have
to do something about that . . . from now on, no holding back; I will
dash off one-liners willy-nilly!
But first, and before we move on to Desolation Island, I do have a
couple of nagging questions apropos of TMC:
1. p. 281: Jack says, "Mr Collins, to Otter and Staunch: proceed to sea
immediately and enemy cruising east-north-east." This is just one
example of something I have been curious about for a while. How many
flags would the commodore's ship have to run up to convey this much
information? I assume both of the ships addressed would be denoted by
their numbers (how many flags for a ship's number?); then at least one
or two for the "proceed to sea" part, another one for enemy cruising,
and a couple more for the direction. There are sometimes examples of
even more complex sets of signals, aren't there? How many flags, total,
could a flagship (good name for it!) carry at once, and still expect to
be understood? Finally: I know the midshipmen had telescopes, but how
close did they have to be in order to discern all of this (i.e., what
was the maximum distance for effective communication)?
2. p. 301: Back on La Reunion and refitting for another confrontation
with the French, Jack is represented as saying, "Farquhar, my good
fellow, be so good as to cut all the tallest trees on the island and set
all the carpenters to work directly. The Africaine must have masts by
dawn on Thursday at the latest." I wondered about the suitability of
freshly-cut timber for marine construction. Of course this is an
emergency situation, and they have to use whatever they can get. But am
I right in assuming that, wherever possible, they preferred to use dry
or seasoned wood? If a ship rigged a mast out of green lumber like
this, would it have to be replaced when and if they gained access to a
well-stocked yard?
[if those last two questions don't seem ignorant to you, I have one
coming after this post that will really take the cake!]
3. Reading through the Group Read archive I find there has been some
discussion of this, but I have to get my own word in:
Several readers have commented on the comedy in the opening section of
TMC; in addition to the nods and winks at "Alice," there is Mrs.
Williams refusing to set the clock going for fear of wearing it out,
Jack being at a loss in the presence of his children, etc. etc. But this
chapter is not merely slapstick. POB fills this section with images of
frustration and infertility (the cow refusing the bull, as has already
been noted; likewise Jack's inability to produce much of worth from his
garden) . . . to add to all this, I like the image of the beehives
devoid of honey, and Jack saying, "it must be more than a month since I
was stung." In addition, the image of the clock at a standstill seems
to round out the feeling: Rather than a "pure paradise" as he expected,
Jack's life since his marriage, at least when he is on shore, is on
hold. No great insights here, I'm afraid, since Jack's desire to go to
sea again is explicit throughout . . . but I just wanted to point out
the more melancholy aspects of these humorous pages.
BTW, I'm not sure I agree with Jerry's comment that Stephen shows his
"innumeracy" when he cites the "law of averages" to reassure Jack as to
the gender of his next child (p. 31); this may well be the case, but at
least my initial impression was that Stephen was well aware of the
fallacy of this argument. He used it anyway, to console a friend who
was in bad need of consolation. Doesn't that fit Stephen's character,
and the nature of their friendship?
--------------------
Steve Ross
Great questions Steve- I believe that just about this period, an Englishman
invented a set of code flags that expressed common phrases- to shorten
number of flags- It seems that Nelson's exhortation at Trafalgar was
changed
(and improved) by suggestions to shorten message(flags) by changing
phrasing.
Blatherin' John B
Home Popham produced a comprehensive signal book about 1807 IIRC.
The example usually given of how comprehensive is that with a very
small number of hoists you can send the signal "YOUR SISTER MARRIED
TO A LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY".
Nelson's signal Lt suggested that he change "CONFIDES" from his
original signal to "EXPECTS" as the latter was in the book whereas
the former would have to be spelled out letter by letter.
Martin @ home:
Several readers have commented on the comedy in the opening section of
TMC; in addition to the nods and winks at "Alice," there is Mrs.
Williams refusing to set the clock going for fear of wearing it out,
I have mentioned before that I think this argument is not merely
mean-spirited as we might expect from Mrs Williams but just plain
wrong. I believe that in constant use parts like clockwork "work-
harden" which reduces wear. One of POB's short stories was about an
obsessive clockmaker and I believe that his research for that story,
or his knowledge of the subject, may have been sufficient to know
this.
Of course I'm thinking back to a physics lesson nearly 30 years
ago
here so there might be something more to the story...
Martin @ home:
Steve Ross asked:
about the suitability of
freshly-cut timber for marine construction. Of course this is an
emergency situation, and they have to use whatever they can get. But am
I right in assuming that, wherever possible, they preferred to use dry
or seasoned wood? If a ship rigged a mast out of green lumber like
this, would it have to be replaced when and if they gained access to a
well-stocked yard?
While no expert, I recall reading that masts and spars would ideally be
seasoned by soaking in a pond set aside near a shipyard for this purpose.
So
while the freshcut timber would be used in an emergency, i woudl think that
it would be replaced as soon as it could reasonably be done.
DAGHDA Jim
Yes, Mrs. Williams is always thinking how to save money and
wear-and-tear on her belongings. I recall in M&C her telling her
butler not to close the curtains with his hand, as it's so bad for
them. And in TMC Stephen muses that perhaps she was really meant by
nature to be managing on 200 pounds a year. Her focus isn't even on
the trees; it's on single leaves, and she doesn't even know there is a
wood.
Loathesome as she is, Mrs. Williams is a great comic character.
Gerry Strey Gerry Strey wrote:
And in TMC Stephen muses that perhaps she was really meant by
nature to be managing on 200 pounds a year. Her focus isn't even on
the trees; it's on single leaves, and she doesn't even know there is a
wood.
Loathesome as she is, Mrs. Williams is a great comic character.
Comic, sure; tragic, maybe.
I am prolly going to misremember badly here, but in some respects I felt
sympathy for the Dreaded Mrs. Williams. IIRC, in PC she supervised a very
Haut-Austen-like fortune of ten thousand pounds for her daughters (was it
1K
for EACH of them?). Through some misadventure (swindle? imbezzlement?) she
lost it and Mapes too. Her presence in Jack's home is through necessity.
We smile at JA's financial ups and down ("Jack Ashore"), but at least he
has
the means through his career to rebuild his fortune. Mrs. Williams does
not
(or not at that point). In the most ironic way, she has been reduced to
what Diana's status was at the beginning of PC: a poor relation with no
prospects.
Her ability to manage a household on 200 pounds a year is no mean feat, as
we have also seen in some of the Austen canon.
I stand tall, awaiting incoming fire.
DAGHDA Jim (Not saying I liked her, but she had her story, too)
Jim, you are one big-hearted gentleman, but I must respectfully
disagree with you about Mrs. Williams in her penury. Stephen thinks
that she doesn't really comprehend her misfortune, and is actually
happy in her interfering management of her daughter's household
(interfering mismanagement, that is). Saving fivepence to her is as
satisfying as saving ten pounds would have been in her previous
condition. And while she managed to lose the 10000 pounds that should
have been Sophie's dowry, she didn't lose Mapes. She can't afford to
live there and has to rent it out, but it's still hers. Eventually
Jack, in one of his wealthy periods, pays off the mortgages on it, but
she prefers to live with Sophy rather than return to it.
I think her effect on her family is the only tragedy. While she
delights in feeling ill-used, she is really a contented woman in her
narrow, crabbed way.
At least until her belated love affair, that is.
Gerry Strey
I've always rather regretted that POB didn't leave at least a small hint as
to the kind of man she married, he having been Sophie's father, and all.
I can't recall if we ever learn what caused his presumably early death.
Mrs. Williams no doubt (unknowingly) played a role.
Marian
I still think he ran away to sea and ended his days in the South
Pacific.
See:
http://mat.gsia.cmu.edu/POB/JUN2700/0550.html
and:
http://mat.gsia.cmu.edu/POB/JUN2700/0551.html
Martin @ home:
Steve Ross wrote:
1. p. 281: Jack says, "Mr Collins, to Otter and Staunch: proceed to sea
immediately and enemy cruising east-north-east." This is just one
example of something I have been curious about for a while. How many
flags would the commodore's ship have to run up to convey this much
information? I assume both of the ships addressed would be denoted by
their numbers (how many flags for a ship's number?); then at least one
or two for the "proceed to sea" part, another one for enemy cruising,
and a couple more for the direction. There are sometimes examples of
even more complex sets of signals, aren't there? How many flags, total,
could a flagship (good name for it!) carry at once, and still expect to
be understood? Finally: I know the midshipmen had telescopes, but how
close did they have to be in order to discern all of this (i.e., what
was the maximum distance for effective communication)?
See my "Make a signal page" at
http://www.maturin.org/popham.cgi - note
that
this is a work-in-progress, and neither my lexicon nor the coding are
complete.
The signal would require three halyards: the first would have the six
number flags representing the numbers of Otter and Staunch. The second would
also
be six flags, four numbers representing the phrase "proceed to sea
immediately" surrounded by the start and end flags. The third might be the
#1 (enemy in
sight) , or it might be a Popham code representing "enemy cruising",
followed by a code for ENE, surrounded by the start and end flags.
Bill Nyden
"Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction?
http://www.maturin.org/
I have a POB discussion group at Yahoogroups. Someone
sent in a perfect picture to answer this question, but I
don't know how to pick it up and re-transmit it. It is a
picture of Nelson's "Victory" flying the signal "England
expects every man will do his duty," and it's a beautiful
and inspiring picture. If someone can tell me how to
re-post it, I'll do that - otherwise, if you want to see
it, I think you have to open a yahoo account and join the
Patrick O'Brian club to see it.
To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful
Aubrey-Maturin series, please visit
http://www.sea-room.com
If this is "Victory" flying the whole signal at once it is not the
way it would have been done at the time. The whole signal took twelve
"lifts", all from the mizzen mast.
The complete signal is shown on the
http://www.aboutnelson.co.uk
web site.
The following passage is quoted from the site:
"Because it is normal today to see the whole signal flying at one
time from the various masts and yards of the Victory - there is a
misconception that this is how it would have looked when originally
flown.
In fact the flag lockers were located at the back of the poop deck,
and the signals would have been made using the mizzen mast only.
The signal itself required twelve "lifts" - for the eight full words
and the four letters that spelt out the word "duty".
The signalling team would have been made up of a Signal Lieutenant
(Pasco) assisted by up to four midshipmen and six seamen.
According to Admiral Smyth's "Sailor's Word Book" - "it may be
observed that signal officers of these days became the elite of the
Navy, Signal Officer being then a proud term of distinction" "
Martin @ home:
Martin wrote:
If this is "Victory" flying the whole signal at once it is not the
way it would have been done at the time. The whole signal took twelve
"lifts", all from the mizzen mast.
I don't think that the website you quote is correct. I believe that
signals such as this were hoisted simultaneously, using all available
masts, yardarms, etc.
Signals from the flagship were generally "repeated" by each of the other
ships, to confirm that they were received. If the twelve hoists were done
individually, the whole process might have taken half an hour!
Don Seltzer
I am not sure if this answers the question but here is a quote from
"Trafalgar The Nelson Touch" by David Howarth, copyright 1969.
{quote}
Mr Pascoe I wish to to say to the fleet, "England confides that every man
will do his duty." You must be quick, for I have one more to make, which
is for close action.' Pascoe asked to be allowed to use 'expects' instead
of 'confides' because 'expects' was in Popham's signal book, but
'confides' would have to be spelt. 'That will do, Pascoe, make it
directly.'
Nelson said. And at 11.35 the most famous battle signal ever made
was hoisted to the yards and mastheads of the Victory.
[a few sentences later]
Collingwood, seeing the flags, said: 'I wish Nelson would stop signalling.
We know what to do'
Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - White Rose County
I have rather lost track of who posted what (e.g., Don Seltzer , Martin ,
Les Hellawell).
However, I disagree that: "If this is "Victory" flying the whole signal at
once it is not the way it would have been done at the time. The whole
signal took twelve
"lifts", all from the mizzen mast."
And also with our friend "England Expects", usually a very knowledgeable
source, whose website, the "About Nelson" one, says "Because it is normal
today to see the whole signal flying at one time from the various masts and
yards of the Victory - there is a misconception that this is how it would
have looked when originally flown. In fact the flag lockers were located at
the back of the poop deck, and the signals would have been made using the
mizzen mast only." I'll ask him what his sources are.
I do nevertheless agree with the posting which said that that: "I don't
think that the website you quote is correct. I believe that signals such
as this were hoisted simultaneously, using all available masts, yardarms,
etc" - or that, if not always all simultaneously, then all least in a
couple of multiple hoists.
Lavery cites the large number of flag halliards needed and fitted,
particularly to a flagship, stating that the "Royal George" in 1794 had
fifteen per side not counting the ensign halliards, on all masts, to
trucks (mastheads), crosstrees and yardarms, from decks and tops, utilising
973 fathoms of rope, 5,838 ft of signal halliard. This would enable a
variety of hoists to be displayed simultaneously. Of course, the line of
sight would be important, to read signals, and the relaying frigates would
often be absolutely necessary to provide a different angle from that formed
by the flagship with other vessels of the line and to transmit the signal
up and down the line.
Regards,
Roger Marsh
From page 109 of the Norton edition:
"Captain Pym had set up a splendid array of bottles and cakes in his cabin,
and as Jack lowered a Bath bun whose specific gravity somewhat exceeded
that of platinum..."
At first I thought this was a serious anachronism, that platinum was a
recent discovery, but it turns out it was discovered in 1735 by Julius
Scaliger in
Italy. The things you learn...
I googled a little for the specific gravity of platinum at
http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/Pt.html
and it's not given, but the melting point is 1772°C. Guess I won't be
trying
to melt any very soon.
But what is a Bath bun? I know I've probably made bread that would qualify
for "Bath bread" on the platinum scale, but is a Bath bun still available
as such?
Alice
The specific gravity of platinum is 21, the heaviest known. The Bath bun,
then, is heavier than the heaviest substance known to science.
Bath bun--appears to be an early form of fruitcake:
From the Food Network web page:
Edmund wrote:
The specific gravity of platinum is 21, the heaviest known. The Bath
bun, then, is heavier than the heaviest substance known to science.
I thought Osmium was higher. I've just found a reference to it
being 22.61. It was discovered in 1803 by Smithson Tenant and named from
the Greek "osme", odour. Some of the transuranic elements may have
higher specific gravities as one of the references said "the heaviest
natural metal on earth".
Martin @ home:
I believe you are correct, sir, and since osmium was the only known
substance heavier than platinum at the time, the bun must have been made
of pure osmium. Jack must have had good teeth and a cast-iron stomach.
EB
ekburton@SWBELL.NET writes:
Bath bun--appears to be an early form of fruitcake:
Yes, it does seem to be a hybrid fruitcake X hot crossed bun. I can see
where they just might exceed the specific gravity of many things. From:
http://www.angliatv.com/sundaymorning/sun180201.html
John Eley's Recipe: Bath Buns
16oz/450g strong plain flour
Make sure all the ingredients are at room temperature. Mix all the dry
ingredients together. Beat the eggs and butter together. Warm the milk.
Gradually mix everything together and form dough. Knead for five minutes.
Divide the dough and form into small buns - they'll rise in a moment. Brush
with glaze and sprinkle with crushed sugar cubes. Allow to rise for 45
minutes.
Place in the oven set at 350f, 180c. gas 5 for 30 minutes. Serve warm with
butter!
Alice
Bath bun sounds like your basic finger bun, minus the strip of pink
buttery icing.
A bun is generally not as serious as a cake. In American terms, try
thinking 'sweet roll'.
and here's a recipe:
Can't find a finger bun recipe for love or money, but if you Google for
'em you'll find a lot of primary school websites listing them as canteen
fodder.
H
A Bath Bun is a sweet yeast bun. According to Elizabeth David ("English
Bread and Yeast Cookery"):
"Bath buns, hot cross buns, spice buns, penny buns, Chelsea buns, currant
buns -- all these 'small, soft plump, sweet, fermented' cakes are English
institutions. Very stodgy ones, too, if you buy them from the bakeries, and
to be
avoided by anyone mindful of their weight and, in particular, of the
obesity problems
of so many of today's English children. Just occasionally, though, it is
agreeable to be able to bake some of these old English specialties at home,
to discover what they were really like -- how much lighter, how much more
character and individuality they had than the stereotyped products turned
out by the
commercial bakeries." She quotes Mistress Margaret Dods, "The Cook and
Housewife's
Manual," 4th edn, 1829 (first published 1826):
"These Bath-buns are almost the same preparation as the Brioche cakes so
much eaten and talked of in Paris".
She discusses at length "real" Bath buns and those sold in London, which
are
heavy and tasteless, and probably what POB was referring to.
She then provides a recipe for the real thing from Elizabeth Raffald, "The
Experienced English Housekeeper," first published in 1769. "Rub half a
pound of butter into a pound of flour, and one spoonful of good barm, warm
some
cream, and make it into a light paste, set it on the fire to rise, when you
make them
up take four ounces of caraway comfits, work part of them in, and strew the
rest on the top, make them into a round cake, the size of a French roll, and
bake
them on sheet tins, and send them in hot for breakfast."
Wanda has been known to make them, and they are a real treat. I can post
her more
modern recipe if anyone wants to try it.
Larry
Larry wrote"
"These Bath-buns are almost the same preparation as the Brioche cakes so
much eaten and talked of in Paris".
This may explain Jack's dissatisfaction. Shortly before "...his French cook
had gone ashore with Bretonniere to join the other prisoners of war, and
never more would there be brioche for breakfast."
Bob Kegel
Bob, you've caught the essence of that moment; Bath buns/brioche are not
supposed to be heavy (at least, the ones I've eaten were not), hence Jack's
putting it down.
References to Norton H/c ed.
The question first:
p35: "pure as the Carlotta" (of hitting a note in music): can anyone
explain what Carlotta is referred to, please?
Now for the comment: it's clear that both Jack and Sophie find married life
less than satisfactory. It seems that there has been a withdrawal of some
kind on Sophie's part which one might, at first, attribute to a certain
degree of sexual frigidity (as noted in Stephen's thoughts about her). But
on closer reading of the opening of the book, it becomes clear that poor
Sophie can hardly feel convinced of her worth as wife and mother as:
She can hardly be blamed for thinking herself a miserable failure on counts
1 and 2 alone, though she is sympathetic to Jack's wish to be at sea. And
then there's the fact that, thanks to Sophie, Jack has been saddled with
Mrs Williams and all her works and pomps.
Jack is not the type to be sensitive to all this and reassuring about it:
so
it's hardly surprising that he feels a distance has arisen between himself
and Sophie, quite apart from any sexual incompatibilities.
London Lois, painfully aware of not having expressed this very well but
hoping something of the idea came across
51° 28' 50" N 000° 10' 53" W
Lois Anne du Toit
"Man is the only animal that both laughs and weeps for man alone is struck
by the difference between what things are and what they ought to be."
Lois Anne du Toit at Lois.Du.Toit@GLOMAS.COM wrote:
p35: "pure as the Carlotta" (of hitting a note in music): can anyone
explain what Carlotta is referred to, please?
I think, I dare say, maybe...
well, there was this German feller named Goethe, as in the poem that
begins..."I have a bookcase, wch is what/Many a better man has not./There
are no books inside, for books/I am afraid, wd spoil its looks./But I've
three busts, all second hand/Upon the top. You understand/I cd not put them
underneath./Shake. Mulleary, and Goethe." (By Samuel Hoffenstein?)
Anyhow, Goethe wrote a sorrowful soulful sorrowful romantic sorrowful novel
in the late 18th century about Young Werther. Who killed himself for love,
and so started a wave of suicides in Germany.
He was in love with this pure, pure, horribly pure lady named Charlotte. Or
Lotte. Or Carlotta, depending on your language. In opera, of course,
Carlotta.
Pure! Damn pure, she. And she was in an opera that the famous Phantom of
the
Op used to enjoy...but that was later.
Charlezzzzz, who may be wrong about Carlotta, but who is vy pure
himself
p35: "pure as the Carlotta" (of hitting a note in music):
Jack is speaking of the long-lived sister of the astronomer, Sir William
Herschel, Caroline Lucretia Herschel (1750-1848), a fascinating character.
For more on her, see:
http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Herschel_Caroline.html
Regarding "Carlotta" - could it be a typo or mis-pronunciation of
"carlotte"? According
to Littré this was the commonly used term for "courlis" ("courlieu"), our
"curlew" (any of various largely brownish chiefly migratory birds
("especially genus
Numenius) having long
legs and a long slender down-curved bill and related to the sandpipers and
snipes").
Gene
I don't think it was Charlotte in WERTHER (pace Charles). I think it must
have been a real singer. But Google let me down. All I can find is the
fictional diva Carlotta from PHANTOM (hello again, Mme!) and the opera
=dancer= Carlotta Grisi.
The First Mate says he read the novel of the PHANTOM as a kid and was
mystified by one character, a mysterious "Persian" who keeps hanging
around.
He misread it as "Parisian" and thought, "why is this name for this guy
so
significant? Everybody else in the story is a Parisian too!"
Reminded me of my college French class where we read "Adolphe" by Constant,
and there's a "belle Polonaise" in it. One of my classmates asked,
"Please,
Madame, I can't figure out how this Polynesian girl got into it."
Deeply, obstinately ignorant, self-opinionated, and ill-informed,
Mary S
What struck me the most during my re-read of The Mauritius Command was the
extent to which it confirmed the observation by several other lissuns that
the first three books formed a sort of trilogy; TMC was the first book
outside this trilogy, and, as such, it formed a new beginning that laid the
framework for the rest of the series to come.
All the books in the Aubrey-Maturin series are at once self-contained and
part of the larger series, with the two tendencies predominating to greater
and lesser extents differently in the differnt books. I think we can see
this most clearly in the endings, which we may consider as "open" (i.e.,
not finishing up, but dangling potentialities before us, the end as
beginning)
or "closed" (showing some sort of resolution, the ending as ending).
Master and Commander I would call a moderately open ending:
"Captain Aubrey: it is no small pleasure to me to receive the commands of
the court I have the honor to preside at, that in delivering to you your
sword, I should congratulate you upon its being restored by both friend and
foe alike; hoping ere long you will be called upon to draw it once more in
the honourable defence of your country."
Not bad as an ending, but the dominant tendency is to beckon towards the
future, when Captain Aubrey shall take up his sword once again.
Post Captain:
"Jack sent the decanter round, desiring them to fill up to the brim; and
raising his glass he said, 'Gentlemen, I give you a toast. I beg you will
drink Sophia.'
"'Sophia!' cried the Spanish captains, holding up their glasses.
"'Sophie,' said Stephen. 'God bless her.'"
Now this is primarily a closed, resolving sort of an ending, and Stephen's
mention of Sophie recalls the ship from M&C, thus nicely wrapping up the
series at two books, had PO'B chosen to end the saga here.
H.M.S. Surprise:
"Heneage, I am so very much obliged to you, so deeply obliged. Now I have
but to run Sophie and my treasure home, and the future is pure paradise."
This is the most closed of the three endings, the "happily ever after"
ending, and note how it builds on the ending for PC; once more Jack is to
go to Sophie, but now more decisively and permanently, and the trilogy is
nicely wrapped up;
except...
well, it's not 100% wrapped up, for the ending's not completely closed,
after all; for, it's a resolution, all right, but not one that rings
completely true, for we, the readers, must think, Yes, very nice, indeed,
but how likely is this to be completely true? Jack may be expecting
Paradise, but has he forgotten the serpent (which appeared as an image
earlier in HMSS)?
All of which sets the stage for TMC.
And TMC's ending is unambiguously open, clearly pointing towards future
books to come:
"'I hereby request and require Captain Aubrey to repair aboard the Boadicea
as soon as he has finished his dinner, there to receive my despatches for
the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty and to convey them to Whitehall
with all the diligence in his power. And to this, gentlemen' -- raising
his glass -- 'I will append a toast: let us all fill up to the brim,
gunwales
under, and drink to England, home and beauty, and may Lucky Jack Aubrey
reach 'em with fair winds and flowing sheets every mile of the way.'"
Note as well how similar this ending is to M & C's ending (and to PC's to a
lesser extent ), which highlights TMC's role as the "second M & C", that
is, the second beginning.
TMC's beginning sentence is also very similar to M&C's.
Thus M & C: "The music-room in the Governor's House at Port Mahon, a
tall, handsome, pillared octagon, was filled with the triumphant first
movement
of Locatelli's C major quartet." and TMC: "Captain Aubrey of the Royal Navy
lived in a part of Hampshire well supplied with sea-officers, some of whom
had reached flag-rank in Rodney's day while others were still waiting for
their first command."
Both sentences begin with a noun (music-room, Captain Aubrey), followed by
a
prepositional phrase (in the Governor's House, of the Royal Navy), a verb
in
the passive voice (was filled, lived), and a simple direct object
(movement, part), which is elaborately modified by a roccoco combination of
adjectives
and further prepositional phrases (triumpant, first, of Locattelli's C
major quartet; of Hampshire (modifying phrase #1) well supplied (#2) with
sea-officers (#3), some of whom had reached flag-rank (#4) in Rodney's day
(#5) while others were still waiting (#6) for their first command (#7)).
Further similarities between M&C and TMC:
* Both books are heavily based on actual historical events.
And what do the characters think of this new beginning? -- though first I
suppose I should explain the premise of my question:
We might ask: just what do the characters do between books?
In one sense, we might answer: they go on living just as before, only
without the camera on them, and when the books resume, they're never the
wiser, and just go on living their normal lives utterly unaware whether
they're in a book or not.
In another sense, we might answer: nothing. They don't exist outside the
books, save as transitory phantasamata inside the brain of a single
man, where they are mixed among many another thought.
So what are the characters' reactions to the new beginning?
They are GRATEFUL.
Consider Jack: when Stephen first sees him: "with a shock the Doctor saw
not only that look of anxiety but also the marks of age and unhappiness.
Stephen Maturin had thought of Aubrey as powerful resilient cheerful youth
itself for so long that this change and the slow, weary motion as the
distant figure closed the instrument and stood up, his hand pressed to an
old wound on his back, were unusually distressing." (p. 17)
I should note that all the characters are in a certain sense PO'B himself,
since they are all products of his imagination, but I see Stephen as mainly
his conscious self, his ego if you will, and Jack as a certain repressed
conception within PO'B's imagination that appears repeatedly within his
fiction and eventually comes to co-exist permanently and equally with his
conscious self. This repressed conception of "powerful resilient cheerful
youth" is at once Michael Russ O'Brien, PO'B's older brother, living once
again; it is James Aislabie (J.A.), who rises from the dead in PO'B's short
story "The Last Pool"; it is Joseph Aubrey Pugh (the repeated name being no
coincidence) from Testimonies, who is still working on the manuscript on
St. Isidore that the real PO'B had lost during the war: he is, in sum, a
continuation of numerous endings in PO'B's life.
So PO'B, writing in 1977 (I'm ignoring publishing lag time to simplify), 4
years after HMSS (1973), conceives of Jack once again; and here is Jack's
reaction:
"'Stephen! [i.e., PO'B]' cried Jack, shooting out backwards with surprising
nimbleness in so large a man and seizing his friend by both hands. His
pink face was scarlet with pleasure, and a slight answering flush appeared
in
Maturin's. 'How very happy I am to see you, old Stephen! How are you?
Where have you been? Where have you been all this time?'" (p. 17)
Similarly, here's Sophie:
"Her distracted look instantly changed to open delight, the sweetest smile.
'Oh Stephen,' she cried, how very happy I am to see you. Come in. I shall
be down directly.'" (p.24)
On a somewhat related point, Clonfert, like James Dillon, can also be
considered a tendency within PO'B's mind: Dillon was in many ways the
"dark" side of PO'B's imagination that reins so freely in many of PO'B's
short stories, but was seemingly vanquished in M&C; now, Clonfert, who
is not an exact parallel to Dillon, but is similar in certain ways, appears
and develops, and Stephen (PO'B's consciousness) finds him quite
captivating at times, but the two tendencies cannot co-exist forever in
equanimity, and, as with M&C, the darker side is once again vanquished
(at least for now); thus is is that McAdam (the mind doctor) recognizes,
"Your Jack Aubrey destroyed him. Jack Aubrey destroyed him." (p.345)
And whilst we're on the subject of symbolism, the name McAdam means "son of
Adam" in a book that began (starting from the last line of HMSS) with "pure
paradise" -- but I believe I've gone on long enough for one post...
John Finneran
John Finneran wrote in A Post of the Day:
I should note that all the characters are in a certain sense PO'B
himself,
since they are all products of his imagination, but I see Stephen as
mainly
his conscious self, his ego if you will, and Jack as a certain repressed
conception within PO'B's imagination that appears repeatedly within his
fiction and eventually comes to co-exist permanently and equally with his
conscious self. This repressed conception of "powerful resilient
cheerful
youth" is at once Michael Russ O'Brien, PO'B's older brother, living once
again; it is James Aislabie (J.A.), who rises from the dead in PO'B's
short
story "The Last Pool"; it is Joseph Aubrey Pugh (the repeated name being
no
coincidence) from Testimonies, who is still working on the manuscript on
St.
Isidore that the real PO'B had lost during the war: he is, in sum, a
continuation of numerous endings in PO'B's life.
...
On a somewhat related point, Clonfert, like James Dillon, can also be
considered
a tendency within PO'B's mind: Dillon was in many ways the "dark" side of
PO'B's imagination that reins so freely in many of PO'B's short stories,
but
was seemingly vanquished in M&C; now, Clonfert, who is not an exact
parallel
to Dillon, but is similar in certain ways, appears and develops, and
Stephen
(PO'B's consciousness) finds him quite captivating at times, but the two
tendencies cannot co-exist forever in equanimity, and, as with M&C, the
darker side is once again vanquished (at least for now); thus is is that
McAdam (the mind doctor) recognizes, "Your Jack Aubrey destroyed him.
Jack
Aubrey destroyed him." (p.345)
An intriguing theory. One thing that struck me about TMC was how Stephen's
role was mostly that of passive observer (he does do much in the way of
intelligence work, but POB just skips over that part, keeping the action
focus on Jack).
In the opening chapter, Stephen is looking upon the domestic scene with
POB's jaded eye toward marriage and particularly children. It could have
been POB himself sitting in the parlor and looking on with horror as the
young girl played with a fine clock. Later, Stephen writes long passages
in his diary that are clearly POB's thoughts on a number of ideas,
including class distinction, courage, and the nature of leadership.
Like HMSS, TMC ends with the striking contrast between Jack's joy at the
news of a son to carry on his name, and Stephen's utter despair and
suicidal thoughts. With whom do you think that POB identified, childless
with Mary, and his own son having completely broken with his father and
returned to his original name of Russ?
John writes of the endings to the books. The first four books are notable
in that they all end with bright prospects for Jack, and either little
mention or dismal chances for Stephen. The fifth book is a turning point
in the canon. It ends with Wogan and Herapath, stand-ins for Diana and
Stephen, going off with hopes for what appears to be a happy future. And,
not to get to far ahead, several of the following books conclude with
visions of future happiness for the pair, with Jack as a simple bystander.
Don Seltzer
Wow, how much fun was that! I don't believe in posts of the day, but if I
did, John F.'s disquisition on how the endings work and on Stephen as
POB's consciousness would be it.
here's the problem with characters as aspects of their author: there is no
real debate about Jack vs. Stephen if they are both their author. Does it
also mean that both Marianne and Elinor, Jane and Elizabeth, are aspects
of Jane Austen? Are both Harry Potter and Snape, J.K. Rowling?
Some authors do admit that they are Heathcliff, but I think most are more
removed.
RA
Bravo to John's analysis of endings and beginnings in the first four
books of the Canon!
I must admit, when I posted a few days ago, as my grumpy old self, on
the topic of "infertility and frustration" in the first chapter of TMC,
Jack's closing words from HMSS were also on my mind. I had meant to add
that the contrast with Jack's expectation of a "pure paradise" showed
how POB was all too aware, from his own experience, of how often
"happily ever after" could prove to be anything but (the reference is to
his first marriage, not to Mary!). Of course, by the end of the book (I
will not speak of later volumes), things have pretty well sorted
themselves out; but Jack's restlessness at the beginning of TMC is not
solely a result of his being "at sea ashore," is it?
On a totally different (non-POB) topic: I saw "A Beautiful Mind" last
night. I was unaware, until I read about it in here, of the controversy
over the "rumored same-sex encounter" that was left out of the film.
But it seems to me, nevertheless, that the scene where Nash is
distracted from his date at the party doesn't really hint at any
attraction to other men, but is an early indicator of his paranoia (it
seemed to him that those men were suspiciously "looking at him").
FWIW, I loved the movie.
Steve Ross
.. a few more points from TMC.
There is of course the great exchange between Stephen and MacAdam:
"'It is the pity of the world, Dr McAdam, to see a man of your parts
obnubilate his mind with the juice of the grape.
"McAdam instantly collected his faculties and replied, 'It is the pity of
the world, Dr Maturin, to see a man of your parts obnubilate his mind with
the juice of the poppy.'"
(It occurs to me just as I write this, is McAdam, who has just denounced
the Pope, making a pun between pope and poppy?)
Also, another fine character is Colonel Keating, about whom a bit of wild
and irresponsible speculation:
He was in India at the same time as Diane.
Now, in HMSS, there was an interesting bit of dialogue: "She is wooing thee
[this is Dil speaking of Diana wooing Stephen] -- she wishes to see thee by
night, oh shameless, ha, ha, ha! But why, when she has three husbands?
Because she must have a fourth, like the Tibetans: they have four husbands,
and the Frank women are very like Tibetans -- strange, strange ways."
(HMSS,
p. 214)
So who are these four husbands? We know (1) Stephen; (2) Canning; and (3)
Johnstone, but who was husband #4? Surely Jack was out of the running at
this point, and, no, you can't count Johnstone as one husband and Johnson
as another. So why not Keating? He has the bluff, straight-forward manner
of
Jack and Canning, so he'd be the type (or at least one of the types) that
Diane goes for, and he was in the right place at the right time. Well, all
right, there's not a lot of evidence, but it's an interesting thought at
least...
John Finneran
Villiers!
My question is: how did Dil know all this? (What am I forgetting/missing?)
Marian
I'm with Marian. Why not the obvious. Dil simply observed that Diana was
being escorted in the carriage by three gentlemen who were obviously
smitten with her, and didn't need Stephen as the fourth.
Don Seltzer
Wasn't Diana in the company of three other officers at the time, who were
put out by the welcome Diana gave Stephen, or was that another occasion?
Adam Quinan
Dil was refering to the three men in the cart with her-- for who else would
she be out in public with but her husband(s)-- it is only wonderfully
tangentally, obrianish that it also works symbolically.
Sarah
I took the passage to refer to the three escorts also- but the comment that
Villiers was the fourth husband should have been obvious, but I too forgot
that it was Diane's married name.
Blatherin' John B
I'd put money down that if we polled the ladies on this list with the
question: "Your preference as love interest, Stephen or Jack?" we'd
find a
unanimous vote for Stephen..........
I do dearly love Stephen, but tis Captian Jack that sets my heart
a-flutter.
Who says there is little humour in MC after the opening chapter?
An especially charming bit: Jack has landed his eerily well-behaved
sailors
and soldiers on shore, "The maidens resumed their vigil, clasping one
another
and giggling: none had yet been caused to blush... but hope was not
altogether dead..."
-Vanessa quite ready to be boarded in the smoke.
John Finneran's masterful post a few days ago, part of the TMC group
read, used the word "rococo" to describe the strings of adjectives he
found in comparing the opening sentences of different books. I don't
want to split hairs, but I did think that characterization was a bit
off, at least if we were to apply it to O'Brian's writing in general.
One of the things that has always attracted me about it is its elegance,
in the sense of doing just what is necessary and no more (not
overly-elaborate or excessively ornamented, which is what I understand
by "rococo"). How does he do it? With such a command of the language
that he can always find precisely the right word to convey, not only
meaning, but sense, flavor, color, and tone . . . so that many of his
passages are, well not quite "spare," but close to it.
I have very little knowledge of art-critical categories, but I would
still modestly suggest a different artistic metaphor for O'Brian's
language. A couple of years ago I thought of writing a short essay or
poem in tribute to the recently deceased author . . . wisely I abandoned
this rash plan, but I retained from it one image: that of O'Brian's
language as a column in the elegant, uncluttered Ionian order (as
opposed to the austere Doric or the elaborate Corinthian). Does this
make any sense?
Steve Ross
The column comparison makes perfect sense to me and an almost perfect
metaphor too. Rococo never seemed quite right to me at the time of reading,
but I couldn't think of a better term so as usual I let it slide.
Stephen Chambers I had the same reaction. Steve Ross was thinking rococo art; I was thinking
rococo music as points of comparison to John Finneran's "rococo phrases" in
POB. Either way, I don't think "rococo" applies. We know O'Brian's sentences
are often long, long, long, comprising multiple clauses -- as writing in the
time the canon is set tended to be. But "long" doesn't necessarily mean florid
or (excessively) decorative. So I, too, think Steve's Ionian column comparison
is an excellent one. (Hey, Steve, you're not bein' a deadhead again, are you?
<g>)
Marian
I have lost the text of our earlier discussions on signalling, number of
hoists for Nelson's famous signal, &c., (e.g., Don Seltzer , Martin , Les
Hellawell).
I and our knowledgeable friend England Expects are still discussing it;
here, with his permission, is his lengthy reply to my suggestion quoting
Lavery:
" Gentlemen
With the pseudonym I have taken you would expect me to be reasonably
knowledgeable on this subject and I hope that is indeed the case. I have
tried to read everything there is, including the controversies regarding
the wording, the controversy about which signal book was used and several
others.
Consider also the question with regard to the seamen who hoisted the flags.
If the groups were shown simultaneously at twelve different places, it
would have entailed twelve men, or twelve pairs of men, going to various
parts of the deck to send the flags aloft. One cannot quite see Lieutenant
Pasco, capable as no doubt he was, detailing Able Seaman Anthony Aslett to
go to the main starboard topsail yard-arm halyards and hoist "471" and Able
Seaman Richard Heaver to go to the fore larboard topsail yard-arm halyards
and hoist "370," and many others elsewhere, far away from his guiding
influence on the poop. There were no specially trained signal ratings in
1805, and the handling of the colours and signal flags usually devolved
upon the quartermasters. The first special rating in this branch, the
Yeoman of the Signals, was not introduced till 1816. A photograph is in
existence portraying Roome (or Roon), "the signaller who hoisted Nelson's
famous signal at Trafalgar." One cannot see him, either, going round and
hoisting thirty-one flags single handed.
I should like to suggest a sketch of what I think must have occurred, an
impression not far removed from the details in Davidson's picture, which
with its few faults, seems accurate in the main. On the poop of the
Victory, on the after side, were situated the colour chests and signal flag
lockers. Three or four men, quartermasters or A.B.s, under Pasco's
immediate supervision, got out the flags, bent them on and hoisted them, as
Pasco read out their numbers, to the mizen masthead one group at a time. To
starboard and to larboard of the Victory were the Royal Sovereign and the
Euryalus, flag-ship and repeating frigate respectively, both carrying
expert signal staffs, who, we may be sure, repeated at their own mizens, as
quick as lightning the groups seen flying in the Victory.
So far as Popham's special telegraph commencing "Preparative flag" is
concerned, it is not clear what method was chosen. The "preparative" might
have been hoisted at the main topgallant masthead, and kept up throughout
the whole telegraph, and hauled down when "DUTY" was finished. Or the
message might have commenced with the "preparative" as the first hoist at
the mizen, and have ended with the special telegraph "Finishing flag" as
the last hoist at the mizen. Both these methods are provided in Popham's
code, and it is impossible to say which was adopted on the great day.
With regard to the modern display of the signal on commemorative occasions,
it may be helpful to examine the possibilities in the past of hoisting more
than one signal group at a time. Popham, in his Telegraphic Signals of
1803, the book used at Trafalgar, says :
In blowing weather, or when much sail is set, as it may be inconvenient to
hoist three flags and a pendant at the same place, the two upper flags may
be hoisted at one part of the ship, and the two others at another, taking
the places in the following progression according as they happen to be
complete: 1st main, 2nd fore, 3rd mizen, 4th gaft, 5th ensign staff.
From 1816 to 1868 the sequence was, "Maintopmast- head superior, then fore,
then mizen, and lastly the gaff end." It was not till 1868 that the
yard-arms were recognized in the signal books, and even then only the main
and mizen topsail yard-arms were included, after the trucks and peak. The
starboard halyards always took precedence over the larboard or port, in
each case.
In 1897 the lower yards were added and the order then was, Main, Fore,
Mizen truck, Peak, Main topsail and lower yard-arms, Fore yard-arms and
Mizen yard-arms. This provided sixteen positions, and it will be noticed
that it was customary to use up the mastheads and peak before having
recourse to any of the yards.
To be perfectly accurate the yard-arms ought not to be used for showing
Nelson's signal."
Do visit his own excellent site at
http://pub59.ezboard.com/faboutnelsonfrm1
and join in the discussion.
Regards,
Roger Marsh
I have (finally!) remembered to look up "crocus of antimony" - page 203 in
the Norton edition, which says in reference to all the mail getting wet and
Jack being unable to decipher Sophie's letters:
I googled the archives and could find nothing (!?) about crocus of
antimony,
nor is it mentioned in PASC. So a big google search found these:
From
From
And last
This last page is particularly interesing because it plays a little pipe
and
drum ditty which sounds Scots/Irish to me.
Which the above notes beg the questions:
Alice
1. What purpose did crocus of antimony serve aboard ship?
If crocus of antimony is antimony sulfide, then it was most certainly
brought aboard the barky by the good doctor, who hoped to employ it as a
sovereign remedy for worms.
Stibophen, U.S.P. XVIII [Pentasodium
bis-4,5-dihydroxy-m-benzene-disulfonato(4-)antimonate(5-)]
Antimony compounds are more caustic than arsenicals, causing skin
eruptions. The irritant action works on the gastrointestinal mucosa,
causing an emetic action. The salivary and bronchial glands are reflexly
stimulated which results in the expectorant action. Stephen no doubt thought
this was very useful.
As for sorting out the mail, I would guess that Stephen was trying to use
it to darken what was left of the ink on the letters, an experiment in
chemistry that did not work very well.
Mary A
I had a really hard time keeping the places straight in and around
Mauritius
and La Reunion, and POB's mention of places not on the maps in the book
added
to the confusion. On Page 217 of the Norton edition, 'twas written:
"He had also cut out a four-hundred-ton merchantman from Jacotet, spiking
the
guns of the little batteries and taking some officers prisoner."
Jacotet? Huh? Where or who was Jacotet? I like the sound of this name
and
just had to find out... Google to the rescue!
There were only three entries for 'Jacotet map': one is about the great
surfing there, another about a Hindu monastery, and this one -
http://www.lowtax.net/lowtax/html/jmuecom.html
"In 2001 Mauritius Telecom also started the installation of underwater
fibre-optic cables in Bay Jacotet, in the South of the country, 40 km from
Port Louis to house the SAFE fibre-optic network (South Africa-Far East)
which will go from Cape Town. SAFE will in turn be linked in Cape Town to
SAT-3/WASC (South Atlantic Telephone-West African Submarine Cable), which
is
15,000-km long and links Europe to South Africa and Western Africa. SAFE
will
continue this connection over 13,800 km from Cape Town to Malaysia, linking
Mauritius, Reunion and India on the way. The SAT-3/WASC-SAFE network goes
from Sesimbra, Portugal, to Penang, Malaysia, connecting along the way
India,
Mauritius, Reunion, South Africa, Nigeria, Ghana, Cote d'Ivoire, Senegal
and
the Canaries. The network will become operational in October 2001."
How much different would it have been if there'd been email and telephone
communications?
Alice
I thought sure these had been discussed recently, but I can find nothing in
the archives except a signature appendage by Hank Burchard, waayyy back
some
years ago. It's on my list of words to look up from TMC and I keep
misplacing the list.
From page 183 in TMC, Norton edition:
"...although indeed Clonfert addressed almost all his conversation to his
neighbour, Dr Maturin, and the two young commanders, Tomkinson of the OTTER
and Dent of the GRAPPLER, did not feel it proper to open their mouths
except
to admit calipash and calipee, fat-tailed sheep and Cape Madeira."
From the Glossary, Dictionary, Food Resouce
CALIPASH and CALIPEE
Garrett, Theodore Francis (edited by). 1898. the Encyclopedia of Practical
Cookery. L. Upcott Gill, 170, Strand, W.C. London. Vol. I
NOUN: An edible, gelatinous, yellowish substance lying beneath the lower
shell of a turtle.
Alice
Ladyshrike@AOL.COM writes:
CALIPASH and CALIPEE
Somehow I thought they were personages of the Planet Vulcan, home of the
redoubtable Mr Spock...
[HMSS] Linois should be reasoned with --
Mary S
I think Jack's attitude toward his family is "sweet." Throughout HMSS,
whenever he is thinking about being married to Sophie, his daydreams
practically have a white picket fence around a little ivy-covered cottage.
He thinks the future with her will be "pure paradise."
But when Stephen comes to see them in M. Command, and the Aubreys' marriage
is so obviously unsatisfactory, Jack merely says it is his fault, he had the
wrong idea about marriage, thinking it would have more friendship and
closeness. He resists the temptation (how great it must have been!) to gripe
about his wife to his friend.
I love him with his kids - when he is so horrified at Stephen's instructions
against tossing the babies in the air, you KNOW he has been doing it a lot!
When he finds out about George from Pullings, he is so thrilled, he doesn't
even mind the shabby treatment he gets from the Admiral.
Linda
In this vein, in this read-through I have noticed that there are many many
times in the canon when we find Jack mourning Stephen's absence. Not just
those times when he's beside himself with worry over Stephen ashore. But
all
the more touching are the times when Jack spies a bird, or a turtle and
says
"How I wish Stephen were here." How very loving that is.
There are dozens of times this happens. Whereas, while we often see
Stephen
taking care of Jack's needs; getting him a ship or a lawyer, we never hear
Stephen lament Jack's absence in quite the same way.
Just thinking out loud...
Vanessa, frowsty and dissolute.
I think Jack's attitude toward his family is "sweet."
Throughout HMSS, whenever he is thinking about being married
to Sophie, his daydreams practically have a white picket
fence around a little ivy-covered cottage. He thinks the
future with her will be "pure paradise."
But when Stephen comes to see them in M. Command, and the
Aubreys' marriage is so obviously unsatisfactory, Jack merely
says it is his fault, he had the wrong idea about marriage,
thinking it would have more friendship and closeness. He
resists the temptation (how great it must have been!) to
gripe about his wife to his friend.
I was thinking about that just this moment - Jack is showing Stephen the
fore crosstrees, with the initials carved upon the cap and waxing
philosophic the both of them. Stephen is surprised to learn that a
garden is included in a marriage - trim rows of cabbages and never a bug
to be seen - and muses in his turn upon the infinity of sea ahead being
the future, the ship the present with the bow-wave the very instant, and
doubtless the confused wake the sleeping past.
Wow, Peter, great minds and all that!
I was disappointed in Sophie......the idea that she was turning into her
mother!!! Poor Jack, who was looking for a partner to offset the loneliness
and isolation of his rank. I wondered along with Stephen when Jack told him
there was no chance of another child, so I was not surprised when Jack was
able to pinpoint George's conception.
Linda
A long hard labor, no drugs and twins to boot would certainly put weaker
women than Sophie off of child bearing!
My father in law is an only child for precisely that reason-- after a
difficult labor and a ten pound baby there was simply no way Grandma Scott
would ever risk having to do that again. I don't think the attitude was that
uncommon in the pre-drug era, and is certainly understandable.
Mrs. Williams, for all the horror stories she probably poured into the
girl's ears, managed to have three daughters. And didn't one of Sophie's
sisters end up marrying quickly-- implying a little test drive? I've always
seen Sophie's coolness as twin facets of her natural reserve and Jack's Go
straight at 'em policy.
Sarah
Yes, Sophie definitely should have had the birth control chat with Diana
long before she did.
I think Jack was looking for someone to talk to and share with as much as to
have sex with. He was a very sociable creature who was just plain lonely.
I have to confess to being a total hypocrite about Sophie - I could never
put up with she had to.
Linda
A long hard labor, no drugs and twins to boot would certainly put weaker
women than Sophie off of child bearing! Never mind the first three months with the twins.....
Greg
42º32'34.5" N
I think Jack's attitude toward his family is "sweet." Throughout HMSS,
whenever he is thinking about being married to Sophie, his daydreams
practically have a white picket fence around a little ivy-covered cottage.
He thinks the future with her will be "pure paradise."
But when Stephen comes to see them in M. Command, and the Aubreys'
marriage
is so obviously unsatisfactory, Jack merely says it is his fault, he had
the
wrong idea about marriage, thinking it would have more friendship and
closeness. He resists the temptation (how great it must have been!) to
gripe about his wife to his friend.
After thinking about this for a week, I realized that the tour thru the
Aubrey land was a metaphor for the Aubrey home life. (This has probably been
discussed a lot, hasn't it?) Jack finally has his dream - his cottage and
his Sophie. He tries to run things like a ship, with ruler straight rows of
plantings that don't thrive. The cow refuses the bull, no matter how game he
is - sound like anyone we know? The roses, part of his idle dreaming, are
spindly. The cabbage patch looks good, but underneath the cabbages are being
eaten away.
But at the beginning of DI, everything seems rosy again. Finally they have
some security. Was it perhaps poverty that was creating so much stress
between them?
I did smile at Stephen's musing regarding Sophie and no more children: her
labor with the twins had been unusually long and difficult, yet there had
been no essential lesion. Easy enough for him to say, eh?
Linda
This morning, as is my habit, I finished HMSS and immediately turned to
TMC, and straight into perhaps the funniest two chapters of the canon.
Poor Jack!! At the end of HMSS he has Sophie in his arms and dreams of
paradise with a white picket fence.
Yet when he achieves it, how sad is the marriage state. Everything is
gone wrong and he doesn't have a penny to pay the postman, quite apart
from the cow refusing the bull.
There are other good bits in the book, as I recall, and it's been about
four years since last I read it (or rather heard it as an audio book),
but it seems to me that PO'B was rather too confined by the historical
campaign, and unable to arrange things as he wished. Fortune of War is
of a similar vein - there are too many historical occurrences impinging
on the narrative for it to be as free-flowing as we might wish. After
FOW he pretty much enters the realm of plausible fantasy, rather than
recounting any identifiable campaign or action.
But I've also got out The Surgeon's Mate so I can read two books at once
and attempt to close the gap.
To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please see
http://www.ericahouse.com/browsebuy/fiction/wenger/index.html
OR http://www.sea-room.com
From: Jerry Shurman
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 9:43 AM
Subject: Groupread:TMC:More Lewis Carroll
From: Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 5:36 PM
Subject: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler
'It's the heaviest hurley that ever yet was cut from the deadly upas-tree.'
From: William Nyden
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler
Bill Nyden
a Rose by another name
37° 25' 15" N 122° 04' 57" W
======================================================
William Nyden | CAD Systems Engineer
Space Systems/Loral | nyden@ssd.loral.com
3825 Fabian Way, Z-02 | ph (650) 852-4333
Palo Alto, CA 94303 USA | fax (650) 852-5207
Fiction after all, has to make sense."
- Mark Twain
http://www.Calif-Sport-Divers.org/
http://www.HMSSurprise.org/
From: Edmund Burton
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler
From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler
From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler
From: Kyle Lerfald
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler
From: Peter Mackay
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler
--
From: Alec O'Flaherty
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 1:54 AM
Subject: Re: what is this about? Mautitius Command-possible spoiler
'It's the heaviest hurley that ever yet was cut from the deadly
upas-tree.'
From: Ray McPherson (raymcp999@YAHOO.COM)
Date: Mon Dec 17 2001 - 23:38:29 EST
Subject: SPOILER! [POB] The Yellow Admiral
From: Peter Mackay (peter.mackay@BIGPOND.COM)
Date: Mon Dec 17 2001 - 23:52:16 EST
Subject: SPOILER! [POB] The Yellow Admiral
From: MacKenna Charleson
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 00:07:46 EST
Subject: Re: SPOILERS TYA and TMC
From: "P. Richman"
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:45:44 +0000
Subject: GroupRead: TMC: question and observation
From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 11:17:00 -0500
Subject: GroupRead: TMC: question and observation
NYC
From: Susan Wenger
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 12:34:40 -0800
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC: question and observation
=====
To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's
wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please see
http://www.ericahouse.com/browsebuy/fiction/wenger/index.html
OR
http://www.sea-room.com
From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 15:41:32 EST
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC: question and observation
From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:56:00 -0500
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC: question and observation
From: Samuel Bostock
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:43:25 -0000
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC: question and observation
From: Don Seltzer
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 14:44:52 -0500
Subject: GRP: TMC: Wine and Women, was question and observation
In HMSS, particular note is made by Jack and Stephen of the 17th of the
month, when Diana and Canning were expected to arrive in Bombay. And
similarly in FOW, Diana and her new paramour Johnson make a similar
reappearance in the canon, arriving in Boston on the 17th of May. Perhaps
a day of significance in POB's own life?
From: John Finneran
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 23:32:48 -0800
Subject: Re: GRP: TMC: Wine and Women, was question and observation
From: Peter Mackay
Subject: Re: GroupRead:TMC:Opening (and sun dry observations on the
weather)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 16:35:45 +1100
From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:14:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC One of my favorite concepts in the book
NYC
From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:22:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage
NYC
From: MacKenna Charleson
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 19:14:41 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage (Pier glasses)
From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:27:57 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage(pier glass)
From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:44:20 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage (Pier glasses)
From: Gerry Strey
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 08:14:38 -0600
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage(pier glass)
Madison. Wisconsin
From: losmp
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 09:40:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage(pier glass)
From: MacKenna Charleson
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 09:58:32 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage(pier glass)
From: Larry & Wanda Finch
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 19:37:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage
From: Peter Mackay
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:03:58 +1100
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage
From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:40:15 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage(howitzer)
From: Mary S
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 22:32:25 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage
35° 58' 11" N
86° 48' 57" W
From: Peter Mackay
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:33:28 +1100
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage
From: Mary S
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 14:46:09 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage
From: Kerry webb
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:13:33 -0800
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage
your most obedient savant
From: Roger Marsh
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 08:30:02 +0100
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage(howitzer)
From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:47:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC Gen Abercrombie's written remarks
Okay, I might be a little off in my reading but, on p346, at the bottom, it
starts:
"...General Abercrombie was struggling to his feet, with a sheaf of notes in
his hand." then he reads and then he fumbles the pages, then we are told that
"It took some time to get the General back to his eulogy of Abercrombie and
all present,..."
NYC
From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:31:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC The character of Clonfert
NYC
From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:11:38 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC The character of Clonfert
41°37'53"N
72°22'51"W
From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 21:19:49 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC The character of Clonfert
From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 22:39:51 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC The character of Clonfert
41°37'53"N
72°22'51"W
From: info
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 13:39:26 -0000
Subject: Groupread: TMC The character of Clonfert
He certainly used the more positive side of him as a model for Jack, and
indeed most of M&C is drawn from Cochrane's exploits in the "Speedy".
He refers to Cochrane several times in the books with some disdain for the
"showy" side of his character.
Jack Aubrey Meyn.
From: Roger Marsh
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:55:44 +0100
Subject: Re: Groupread TMC - The Character of Clonfert (and Aubrey and
Cochrane)
From: Edmund Burton
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:16:25 -0600
Subject: Re: Groupread TMC - The Character of Clonfert (and Aubrey and
Cochrane)
From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:41:09 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread TMC - The Character of Clonfert (and Aubrey and
Cochrane)
41°37'53"N
72°22'51"W
From: Roger Marsh (frigates@MARLINTER.FSNET.CO.UK)
Date: Thu Jan 03 2002 - 03:39:30 EST
Cochrane the Movie, Biography &c. (was The Character of Clonfert &c.)
"The Sea Wolf" (Ian Grimble)
"Lord Cochrane" (Christopher Lloyd)
"Cochrane" (Warren Tute)
From: Don Seltzer
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:44:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Cochrane the Movie, Biography &c.
From: Jean A
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 21:30:24 EST
Subject: Groupread: TMC: Clonfert
"The doorway of the present church is an outstanding example of
Hiberno-Romanesque decoration, featuring an amazing variety of motifs,
foliage, animal heads and human eads."
From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:12:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC About the word 'cello
NYC
From: Robert Saldeen
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 18:16:20 -0600
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC About the word 'cello
From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:18:17 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC About the word 'cello
41°37'53"N
72°22'51"W
From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 21:54:15 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC about the word cello
"Cello is short for violoncello. My copy of the Oxford
English
Dictionary
indicates its first use in English as dating from 1881."
From: Jerry Shurman
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 19:21:09 -0800
Subject: Re: GUNROOM Digest - 1 Jan 2002 - Special issue (#2002-3)
From: Jerry Shurman
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 19:39:56 -0800
Subject: Re: GUNROOM Digest - 1 Jan 2002 - Special issue (#2002-4)
From: Rowen 84
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 22:46:57 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC about the word cello
From: Rowen 84
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 22:57:42 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC about the word cello-Correction
From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 23:31:15 EST
Subject: Cellos and stuff
"viola da gamba is quite a different instrument, a member of the viol family
rather than the violin family"
From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 22:57:35 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC about the word cello
From: Ruth A Abrams
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:42:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC about the word cello
From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:33:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC Did it actually happen?
NYC
too confused to know what the right cliches are most of the time
From: MacKenna Charleson
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 19:25:46 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC Did it actually happen?
From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:02:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC Number of guns in a salute
p.104... 13 to a Commodore
p.86... 17 to the Admiral
NYC
From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:42:56 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC Number of guns in a salute
From: Barney Simon
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:41:00 -0500
Subject: Groupread: TMC JA's responsibility at Ile de la Passe
NYC
From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:14:50 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC JA's responsibility at Ile de la Passe
41°37'53"N
72°22'51"W
From: Ray Martin
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:47:23 -0000
Subject: The mauritius command - POB a practising?
Ray@TheBay
1:48.90 West
From: Linnea
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:48:47 -0500
Subject: Group Read: The Mauritius Command
From: Ladyshrike@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 10:17:28 EST
Subject: Speaking of Mauritius...
The sun is riz,
I wonder where
Mauritius is?"
From: Thistle Farm
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:28:45 EST
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...
From: Bill Nyden
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 07:33:39 -0800
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...
a Rose by another name at Home
37° 23' 28" N 122° 04' 09" W
From: Thistle Farm
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:32:39 EST
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...
From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:28:26 EST
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...
41°37'53"N 72°22'51"W
From: Micheal Bloomberg
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:40:14 -0600
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...
45:03:13 N
93:15:17 W
From: Ladyshrike@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:33:36 EST
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...
From: Peter Mackay
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:10:19 +1100
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...
A stern chase is not necessarily the longest chase.
When the FOO shits, wear it.
From: Charles Miller
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:45:53 -1000
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...
From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:45:38 EST
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...
41°37'53"N 72°22'51"W
From: Edmund Burton
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:11:34 -0600
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...
That dark and stormy day,
But the shaggiest dog in the gunroom log
Was writ by Peter Mackay.
From: Gerry Strey
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:19:46 -0600
Subject: Re: Speaking of Mauritius...
From: Alec O'Flaherty
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 19:24:47 +0000
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC more q's on word usage
I'm a mere child of 42.
I believe it is still used to this day in legal letters-although thankfully
it been a while since I received one.
From: Susan Wenger
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:25:24 -0800
Subject: groupread:TMC:Welshwoman
From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:42:03 EST
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:Welshwoman
From: Martin
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 18:27:19 -0000
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:Welshwoman
Remember that the same O'Brian created the character of Bronwen in
Testimonies.
50° 44' 58" N
From: Susan Wenger
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:29:19 -0800
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:Welshwoman
From: Rowen 84
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 00:35:24 EST
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:Welshwoman
From: Peter Mackay
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 22:22:06 +1100
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:Welshwoman
From: Mike French
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:09:25 -0000
Subject: Fw: [POB] groupread:TMC:Welshwoman
Friend of the Polychrest
From: Mary S
35° 58' 11" N
86° 48' 57" W
From: Ruth A Abrams
Subject: groupread:TMC:Welshwoman
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 01:10:21 -0500
From: Don Seltzer
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:45:58 -0500
Subject: Re: GRP TMC:Welshwoman
From: Linnea
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:45:25 -0500
Subject: Group Read TMC: French ships
French, but a prize and now sailed by the RN, of course.
It occurs to me that all through the books, there is note taken of
how well the French build their ships and how some French captains and crews
are very good sailors.
From: Peter Mackay
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 13:46:30 +1100
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
From: Linnea
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:10:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
From: Adam Quinan
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:08:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
Commander Ted Walker R.N.
Somewhere around 43° 46' 21"N, 79° 22' 51"W
For some of my family history see
http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/quin.htm
From: Susan Wenger
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 19:13:12 -0800
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful
Aubrey-Maturin series, please visit http://www.sea-room.com
From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 23:34:00 EST
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
From: Randy Hees
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 19:30:33 -0800
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
37:34:15.197N 122:17:55.090W
From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 23:01:47 EST
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
41°37'53"N 72°22'51"W
From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 23:15:35 EST
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
From: Adam Quinan
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 23:57:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
From: Roger Marsh
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:51:39 +0100
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
But I wonder what it is that makes the ships so good: the design? the
craftsmen? the shipyards? All of the above? On other counts, the British
seem to disparage the French in the books. It is surprising to learn that
the English, with their mastery of the sea, admired these French-built
ships. Why didn't they copy them and build even better ones?
From: Peter Mackay
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 21:56:05 +1100
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 17:28:22 EST
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
:-)
From: Gregory Edwards
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 06:53:57 -0800
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
From: Batrinque@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 20:12:11 EST
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
41°37'53"N 72°22'51"W
From: Pawel Golik
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:46:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
Currently at 33°48'53"N 84°19'25"W
Home is at 52°12'25"N 21°5'37"E
From: Roger Marsh
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 01:10:18 +0100
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC: French ships
From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 01:06:00 EST
Subject: GROUPREAD TMC; a few POB literary tricks
Thy chase had a beast in view
Thy wars brought nothing about
Thy lovers were all untrue
'Tis well an old age is out
And time to begin a new.
From: Susan Wenger
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 07:11:15 -0800
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC; a few POB literary tricks
From: Ray McPherson
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:04:13 -0800
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC; a few POB literary tricks
From: Kathryn Guare
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 09:15:10 -0800
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC; a few POB literary tricks
From: Susan Wenger
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 10:45:42 -0800
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC; a few POB literary tricks
From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 18:45:04 EST
Subject: GROUP READING, TMC: Jack and Sophie and Diana too
From: Susan Wenger
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:31:11 -0800
Subject: Re: GROUP READING, TMC: Jack and Sophie and Diana too
From: Rosemary Davis
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:27:25 -0500
Subject: Groupread TMC - engendering
From: Susan Wenger
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:34:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Groupread TMC - engendering
: }
From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:09:58 EST
Subject: Groupread MC - engendering (tiny spoiler)
begotten
From:"P. Richman"
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 02:35:10 +0000
Subject: groupread:TMC:bull and frog
From: Adam Quinan
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:42:57 -0500
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:bull and frog
'Grab a chance and you won't be sorry for a might-have-been'
Commander Ted Walker R.N.
Somewhere around 43° 46' 21"N, 79° 22' 51"W
For some of my family history see
http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/quin.htm
From: losmp
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 23:37:01 -0500
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:bull and frog
From: Kerry Webb
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:04:08 +1100
Subject: Re: groupread:TMC:bull and frog
Canberra, Australia http://www.alia.org.au/~kwebb/
From: Martin
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 21:21:26 -0000
Subject: Fables of La Fontaine: Was bull and frog
50° 44' 58" N
1° 58' 35" W
From: Steve Ross
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:39:26 -0600
Subject: Back from the Far Side of the World; some TMC questions
But my question pertains to an earlier humorous passage, where Stephen
has given Jack the news of his command, but requires him to keep it
quiet for the time being (p. 43):
" 'A ship!' cried Jack, springing heavily into the air. There were
tears in his eyes, and Stephen saw that he might wish to shake hands at
any minute. He disliked all effusion, privately thinking the English
far too much given to weeping and the flow of soul; he pursed his lips
with a sour expression, and put his hands behind his back."
Does anyone besides me see irony in this? (specifically, in the fact
that the Irishman--from a nation often characterized as deeply
emotional, not to say lugubrious--disdains the "reserved,
stiff-upper-lip" English as too _effusive_?)
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W
From: Matt Cranor
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:23:19 -0800
Subject: Re: Back from the Far Side of the World; some TMC questions
From: Astrid Bear
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:50:55 -0800
Subject: Re: Back from the Far Side of the World; some TMC questions
"and there aren't any moa any moa"
From: Stephen Chambers
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 22:01:29 -0000
Subject: Re: Back from the Far Side of the World; some TMC questions
50° 48' 38" N 01° 09' 15" W
Approx. 180 inches above sea level
When the pin is pulled Mr Grenade is no longer our friend.
From: Peter Mackay
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 07:23:21 +1100
Subject: GROUPREAD: Back from the Far Side of the World; some TMC questions
From: Steven K Ross
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:06:15 -0600
Subject: GroupRead TMC: the use of history [was: Re: [POB] Silence about
Nelson]
From: Steven K Ross
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:03:48 -0600
Subject: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert
Baton Rouge
From: Gerry Strey
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:11:12 -0600
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert
Madison, Wisconsin
From: Thistle Farm
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:44:11 EST
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert
From: Susan Wenger (susanwenger@YAHOO.COM)
Date: Mon Jan 14 2002 - 22:05:20 EST
Subject: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert"
From: Don Seltzer
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 21:02:40 -0500
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert
"Clonfert is more of an Irishman, with the exacerbated susceptibilities of
a subject race, than I had supposed; more indeed than I gave Jack to
understand. I find that as a boy he did not attend a great English public
school, as did most of his kind I have known; nor did he go early to sea
and thereby wash away the barrier... Far from it: he was brought up
almost entirely by the servants at Jenkinsville (a desolate region).
Squireen foster-parents too for a while, his own being so mad or so
disreputable: and he seems to have sucked in the worst of both sides ...
an uneasy awareness of his own distinction, a profound uncertainty of its
real value, and a conviction that to validate its claims he should be twice
as tall as other men .... He has surrounded himself with a strikingly
inferior set of officers ... no doubt they provide him with the approval he
longs for; but how much can a man of his understanding value their
approval?"
When they were alone with their coffee Stephen, after a long brooding
pause, said, 'Do you remember I once said of Clonfert that for him truth
was what he could make others believe? ... I expressed myself badly. What
I meant was that if he could induce others to believe what he said, then
for him the statement acquired some degree of truth, a reflection of their
belief that it was true; and this reflected truth might grow stronger with
time and repetition until it became conviction, indistinguishable from
ordinary factual truth, or very nearly so.'
From: Gerry Strey
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 08:26:20 -0600
Subject: WAS C really POB? Was:Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert
Madison, Wisconsin
From: Steve Ross
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:41:12 -0600
Subject: GROUPREAD TMC: Stephen and British colonialism
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W
From: Jim Quinn
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:17:29 -0800
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Stephen and British colonialism
From: David Dunn
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:52:20 -0500
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Stephen and British colonialism
From: HrgSmes@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 17:22:42 EST
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Stephen and British colonialism
HR Greenberg MD ENDIT
From: Steven K Ross
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:50:35 -0600
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert
From: Susan Wenger (susanwenger@YAHOO.COM)
Date: Tue Jan 15 2002 - 14:14:16 EST
Re: GROUPREAD TMC: Clonfert
: }
From: Mal Marchant
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:13:48 +0800
Subject: Groupread: TMC: The Forgotten Man Mk I
Derelict Goldminer
31°02'21.9"S 121°36'53.9"E (GDA)
GMT +08:00
From: Vanessa Brown
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 01:19:40 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC: The Forgotten Man Mk I
From: Mal Marchant
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:49:36 +0800
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC: The Forgotten Man Mk I
Derelict Goldminer
31°02'21.9"S 121°36'53.9"E (GDA)
GMT +08:00
From: Peter Mackay
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 17:35:02 +1100
Subject: Re: Groupread: TMC: The Forgotten Man Mk I
From: Susan Wenger (susanwenger@YAHOO.COM)
Date: Wed Jan 16 2002 - 19:46:49 EST
GroupRead:TMC:humor
From: Marian Van Til
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:31:32 -0500
Subject: POB and Middlemarch (was: RE: [POB] GroupRead:TMC:humor)
From: Mary Arndt
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:43:36 -0500
Subject: Group Read TMC; grains of Paradise
Does anyone know what this might be?
From: Gerry Strey
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:20:21 -0600
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC; grains of Paradise
Madison, Wisconsin
From: Robert Henrickson
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:50:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Group Read TMC; grains of Paradise
*******************************************************************
http://home.att.net/~r.c.henrickson
Personal webpage
http://home.att.net/~gordion
Gordion: Archaeological Research
From: Alec O'Flaherty
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:06:53 +0000
Subject: Clonfert,Ballinasloe and St Brendan
From: Jean A
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:04:36 EST
Subject: Re: Clonfert, St. Brendan
The voyage to, ultimately, Newfoundland, was chronicled in Severin's book,
"The Brendan Voyage", whicn is familiar to some on the list.
It was also featured in an issue of National Geographic Magazine, and, I
believe, a tv special.
From: Steve Ross
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:43:00 -0600
Subject: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags; ship timber; imagery)
"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims." -- DI p. 67
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W
From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:06:11 EST
Subject: Re: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags; ship timber; imagery)
From: Martin
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 20:18:14 -0000
Subject: Re: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags; ship timber; imagery)
50° 44' 58" N
1° 58' 35" W
From: Martin
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 19:10:59 -0000
p>
Steve wrote:
50° 44' 58" N
1° 58' 35" W
From: Jim Quinn
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:44:24 -0800
Subject: Re: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags; ship timber; imagery)
From: Gerry Strey
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:20:23 -0600
Subject: Mrs. Stingy:WasRe: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags; ship
timber; imagery)
Madison, Wisconsin
From: Jim Quinn
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:03:56 -0800
Subject: Re: A tear for poor Mrs. W. (was Mrs. Stingy, &c)
From: Gerry Strey
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:55:50 -0600
Subject: Re: A tear for poor Mrs. W. (was Mrs. Stingy, &c)
Madison, Wisconsin
From: Marian Van Til
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 12:51:56 -0500
Subject: Re: A tear for poor Mrs. W. (was Mrs. Stingy, &c)
From: Martin
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 19:08:49 -0000
Subject: Re: A tear for poor Mrs. W. (was Mrs. Stingy, &c)
50° 44' 58" N
1° 58' 35" W
From: William Nyden
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:44:35 -0800
Subject: Re: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags; ship timber; imagery)
a Rose by another name
37° 25' 15" N 122° 04' 57" W
======================================================
William Nyden | CAD Systems Engineer
Space Systems/Loral | nyden@ssd.loral.com
3825 Fabian Way, Z-02 | ph (650) 852-4333
Palo Alto, CA 94303 USA | fax (650) 852-5207
Fiction after all, has to make sense."
- Mark Twain
http://www.Calif-Sport-Divers.org/
http://www.HMSSurprise.org/
From: Susan Wenger (susanwenger@YAHOO.COM)
Date: Tue Feb 05 2002 - 09:34:56 EST
Subject: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags)
From: Martin (martin_sj_watts@LINEONE.NET)
Date: Tue Feb 05 2002 - 14:03:46 EST
Subject: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags)
See:
http://www.aboutnelson.co.uk/england%20expcts.htm
50° 44' 58" N
1° 58' 35" W
From: Don Seltzer (dseltzer@DRAPER.COM)
Date: Tue Feb 05 2002 - 14:22:54 EST
Subject: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags)
From: Les Hellawell
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 20:43:20 -0000
Subject: Re: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags)
{unquote}
From: Roger Marsh
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 17:46:13 -0000
Subject: Re: GRP TMC: More post-its (signal flags)
From: Ladyshrike@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 23:21:33 EST
Subject: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns
From: Edmund Burton
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 23:23:07 -0600
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns
Definition: Said to have originated in the English town of Bath in the
18th century, this sugar-coated yeast bun is studded with candied fruit and
currants or golden raisins.
http://www.foodtv.com/terms/tt-r2/0,4474,286,00.html
From: Martin
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 08:32:22 -0000
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns
50° 44' 58" N
1° 58' 35" W
From: Edmund Burton
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:23:08 -0600
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns
From: Ladyshrike@AOL.COM
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 06:42:09 EST
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns
Definition: Said to have originated in the English town of Bath in the 18th
century, this sugar-coated yeast bun is studded with candied fruit and
currants or golden raisins.
The invention of a certain Dr. Oliver of Bath who was responsible for the
Bath Oliver biscuit!
1 sachet quick rise yeast
1 teaspoon sugar
4oz/100g butter
3oz/75g caster sugar
2 eggs
2oz/50g chopped mixed peel
2oz/50g crushed sugar lumps (for topping)
1 egg for glazing
From: Helen Connor
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:41:47 +1100
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns
http://www.britannia.com/cooking/recipes/bathbuns.html
cultural interpreter
From: Larry & Wanda Finch
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 10:34:06 -0500
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns
From: Bob Kegel
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:46:12 -0800
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC - platinum and Bath buns
46°59'18.661"N 123°49'29.827"W
From: Rosemary Davis
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:16:33 -0500
Subject: Bath buns
From: Lois Anne du Toit
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:49:48 -0000
Subject: Groupread TMC: a comment and a question - TINY SPOILER
1. Jack is clearly disappointed that the twins are girls
2. Mrs Williams has contrived to lose Sophie's dowry, thus depriving Jack
of
financial help he might, in Sophie's mind, regard as rightfully his due.
3. Jack is clearly longing to be at sea (he thinks she doesn't know of his
staring at the sea with his telescope but she does: p 36).
lois@glomas.com
(William Hazlitt)
From: Charles Munoz
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:44:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Groupread TMC: a comment and a question - TINY SPOILER
From: Gene Halaburt
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:15:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Groupread TMC: a comment and a question - TINY SPOILER
40° 46' N 111° 58' W
From: Mary S
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:13:34 EST
Subject: Re: Groupread TMC: a comment and a question - TINY SPOILER
35° 58' 11" N
86° 48' 57" W
From: John Finneran
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:11:10 -0800
Subject: GRP: TMC: The New Beginning
* Both begin with Jack, who quickly encounters Stephen.
* As Don Seltzer pointed out: "With Clonfert, isn't POB exploring further
the type of three-way relationship he created in M&C with James Dillon?"
(He is indeed, Don.)
*Even the titles are similar (Commander, Command; Master, Mauritius).
From: Don Seltzer
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:27:05 -0500
Subject: Re: GRP: TMC: The New Beginning
From: Ruth A Abrams
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:06:32 -0500
Subject: GRP: TMC: The New Beginning
From: Steve Ross
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:54:51 -0600
Subject: Re: GRP: TMC: The New Beginning [also: in re "A Beautiful Mind"]
--------------------
"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims." -- DI p. 67
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W
From: John Finneran
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:19:44 -0800
Subject: GRP:TMC: Let us not obnubilate...
From: Thistle Farm
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:22:22 EST
Subject: Re: GRP:TMC: Let us not obnubilate...
From: Marian Van Til
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:34:47 -0500
Subject: Re: GRP:TMC: Let us not obnubilate...
From: Don Seltzer
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:51:19 -0500
Subject: Re: GRP:TMC: Let us not obnubilate...
From: Adam Quinan
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:10:53 -0500
Subject: Re: GRP:TMC: Let us not obnubilate...
From: Thistle Farm
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:31:44 EST
Subject: Re: GRP:TMC: Let us not obnubilate...
From: Jebvbva@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:47:37 EST
Subject: Re: GRP:TMC: Let us not obnubilate...
From: Vanessa Brown
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 01:05:47 EST
Subject: Re: Canon Sex and a bit of GROUP READ MC
From: Steve Ross
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:11:46 -0600
Subject: The "Rococo" O'Brian?
--------------------
"These are mere whimsies, my dear, vapours, megrims." -- DI p. 67
30° 24' 32"N
91° 05' 28"W
From: Stephen Chambers (scc970@TISCALI.CO.UK)
Date: Mon Feb 04 2002 - 14:54:52 EST
Subject: The "Rococo" O'Brian?
50° 48' 38" N 01° 09' 15" W
Approx. 180 inches above sea level
When the pin is pulled Mr Grenade is no longer our friend.
From: Marian Van Til
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:42:56 -0500
Subject: Re: The "Rococo" O'Brian?
From: Roger Marsh
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:06:17 -0000
Subject: Signalling
However, I said then that I disagreed that: "If this is "Victory" flying
the whole signal at once it is not the way it would have been done at the
time. The whole signal took twelve "lifts", all from the mizzen mast" as
stated. I referred to Lavery who cites the large number of flag halliards
needed and fitted, particularly to a flagship, stating that the "Royal
George" in 1794 had fifteen per side not counting the ensign halliards, on
all masts, to trucks (mastheads), crosstrees and yardarms, from decks and
tops, utilising 973 fathoms of rope, 5,838 ft of signal halliard.
I learned quite early on that the most respected writer on naval signalling
of the last century was Commander Hilary P Mead, an ex-Flag Lieutenant and
Signal and Wireless Officer. I tracked down a copy of his 1936 book
entitled Trafalgar Signals.
For this post I am inclined to just repeat the several paragraphs that Mead
wrote on this subject. In a subsequent post I will make some further
comments and put my own "spin" on the subject.
HOISTING THE FAMOUS SIGNAL
The question has often been asked whether the twelve groups of Nelson's
signal were hoisted simultaneously, or a few at a time, or one by one. When
the signal is displayed on board the Victory and at various other places on
Trafalgar Day annually, of course the groups must be shown at one and the
same time, but this is not to imply, by any means, that they were thus
hoisted on the great day. Consider in the first place the number of sets of
flags that would be available on board the flag-ships and repeating
frigates. Failing any definite information on the subject, one would not
expect these vessels to carry more than two sets, or perhaps three at the
most. But it will be evident that certain flags appeared more times than
three; for instance NO.2 occurs six times, and No.1 four times. It is quite
certain that no ship, not even the Commander-in-Chief's flag-ship, would
have possessed so many sets of bunting to make possible the simultaneous
showing of all these hoists.
From: Ladyshrike@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:40:13 EST
Subject: GroupRead:TMC: crocus of antimony
"Together they pored over the sheets, using a magnifying-glass, intuition,
crocus of antimony, and a little diluted copperas; but to small effect."
http://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~odonnell/OData/Courses/22C:096/
Definitions/antimony.def.html
(mind the wrap!)
crocus of antimony: an impure sulphide of antimony and sodium, formed as a
scoria in smelting antimony
http://www.wise.virginia.edu/history/runaways/clothgloss.html
Old Chem. A name given to various yellow or red powders obtained from
metals
by calcination; as crocus of antimony (crocus antimonii or c. metallorum),
a
more or less impure oxysulphide of antimony; crocus of copper (c. veneris),
cuprous oxide; crocus of iron (c. martis; also in 15th c. crokefer),
sesquioxide or peroxide of iron.
http://www.c-zone.net/cjoksch/chemicals.htm
Antimony sulphide
1. What purpose did crocus of antimony serve aboard ship?
2. What purpose did it serve in sorting out the mail?
From: Mary Arndt
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:28:29 -0500
Subject: Re: GroupRead:TMC: crocus of antimony
2. What purpose did it serve in sorting out the mail?
From "Inorganic Medicinal and Pharmaceutical Chemistry"
Block,Roche,Soine and Wilson; 1974:
This compound is used in the treatment of schistosomiasis.
Stephen probably didn't use intramuscular injection to treat
schistosomiasis, as my old pharmacy text indicates, but more likely
employed it orally to do away with tape worms. And it ought to work for
this nicely, since antimony has many of the same attributes as arsenic.
There are other antimony based remedies he might have used, but Antimony
Potassium Tartrate does not have the sulfide groups and perhaps would not be
considered "crocus of antimony"? Stephen and POB might be nodding here.
Antimony Potassium Tartrate, aka Mynsicht's Emetic Tartar, was discovered
by Adrian Mynsicht, physician of the early seventeenth century, who invented
Elixir of Vitriol. It was used in a cough preparation called "Brown
Mixture" N.F. XII.
From: Ladyshrike@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:43:16 EST
Subject: GroupRead: still TMC: Jacotet
From: Ladyshrike@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:37:50 EST
Subject: GroupRead: TMC (again): calipash and calipee
http://www.orst.edu/food-resource/glossary/c.html - not a bad page in
itself...
are terms probably corruptions of the word carapace, which is the hard,
domed
shell covering the back of the turtle, crab, lobster. In the popular
acceptation the former word signifies the flesh of the turtle under the
upper
shell and the latter that upon the under shell.
From: Mary S
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:49:51 EST
Subject: Re: GroupRead: TMC (again): calipash and calipee
are terms probably corruptions of the word carapace
35° 58' 11" N
86° 48' 57" W
From: brumby6
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:55:41 -0600
Subject: Sweet Jack with spoiler for HMSS and M. Command
From: "Vanessa Brown"
Date: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:39 AM
Subject: Sweet Jack
From: Peter Mackay
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:57:18 +1000
Subject: Sweet Jack with spoiler for HMSS and M. Command
From:brumby6
Date:Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:11:51 -0600
Subject:Sweet Jack with spoiler for HMSS and M. Command
From: Thistle Farm
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:37:51 EST
Subject: Re: [POB] Sophie's coolness was [POB] Sweet Jack with spoiler
forHMSSand M. Command
From:brumby6
Date:Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:59:38 -0600
Subject:Re: [POB] Sophie's coolness was [POB] Sweet Jack with spoiler
forHMSSand M. Command
From: Greg White
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:47:46 -0500
Subject: Re: [POB] Sophie's coolness was [POB] Sweet Jack with
spoiler forHMSS and M. Command
71º20'13.2" W
From: brumby6
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 17:54:15 -0600
Subject: Re: [POB] Sweet Jack with spoiler for HMSS and M. Command
From: Peter Mackay
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 09:50:48 +1000
Subject:[POB] Catching up to the Groupread.
Return
to Main Page