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From Patrick O'Brian's "The Golden Shore," page 12 (Chapter One):
. . . Peter said to himself "Well, so it has begun," and again he wondered that the words should feel so commonplace and flat. Perhaps it was because he was still on such familiar ground, he thought, looking up from his horse's mane: when you start out on a great adventure perhaps you expect everything to change all round you at once, and there is a feeling of something wrong in going over the country you know so well.
I don't feel commonplace and flat about this myself - I think we are embarking on a great adventure sure, and I'm eager and excited and exhilarated to start!
Let the journey begin!
- Susan
Which the subject line shoulda' been TGS, not YGS: I musta' been overexcited.
It is said that "even Homer nods".
Peter Palafox serves under two first lieutenants while aboard HMS Centurion. Lieutenant Saunders and Lieutenant Saumarez. Saumarez is a member of that distinguished naval family from the channel islands. Towards the end of chapter 7 Lieutenant Saunders is appointed to command of HMS Tryal. That is on page 137 of my Norton edition.
On page 55, during his first meeting with PP, the Reverend Mr Walters refers to Saumarez as if he were the first lieutenant. This is clearly a mistake, and one which, I believe, is repeated in other places in the novel. What I suspect is that the passages where PP speaks with Walters may have been written at a different time than other portions of the novel.
Subject: Re: GroupRead:TGO:Opening the Discussion
We can open the ceremonies with a song. Here is a URL for Lilli Bulero.
http://www.contemplator.com/folk2/lilli.html
TGO page 63 chapter 3
"This is the other Teague," said Keppel.
"My name is not Teague," cried Peter. He had had a trying day, and was in no mood to be joked at.
"Be calm, Teague," said another midshipman, and fell to whistling Lillibullero.
"Take it easy, Teague," said another.
But Peter would not take it easy: he hesitated, trying to quell the wild indignation; but he failed; it possessed him, and with a furious shriek he hurled himself upon his country's oppressors.
Mary
I thought the whole scene Mary references above was quite funny, the cat incident, the press gang being attacked by the women, everyone mistaking Keppel for something other than what he is, and so on. Up to the point where they kife the wherry I found myself just hoping that we would get on with the story already.
Karen von Bargen
While Peter and Sean drink their acidulated Whisky (until they are caught), I noticed that grog was not served out. Am I correct in assuming that this book pre-dated the practice?
I particularly enjoyed the surgeons comment that the acidulated whisky might serve as a medicine, exhibited properly. Well, yes, it might!
Greg
42º32'34.5" N
71º20'13.2" W
Contrast the first sentence of "The Golden Ocean:"
"Good-bye,' they were all crying."
with the first sentence of "Blue at the Mizzen:"
"The "Surprise," lying well out in the channel with Gibraltar half a mile away on her starboard quarter, lying at a single anchor with her head to the freshening north-west breeze, piped all hands at four bells in the afternoon watch; and at the cheerful sound her tender "Ringle," detached once more on a private errand by Lord Keith, cheered with the utmost good will, while the Surprises turned out with a wonderful readiness, laughing, beaming and thumping one another on the back in spite of a strong promise of rain and a heavy sea running already."
Was it simply maturation (no pun intended) of writing style, or was the style geared to the intended readership? I looked at his earliest novels.
Writing under his birth name, Richard Patrick Russ, he started his first published novel (surely written for boys), "Caesar," quite simply:
First you must understand that I am a panda-leopard."
"Beasts Royal" probably shouldn't be part of the analysis, being not a novel but a series of short stories with the common theme of being about animals. It opened:
"Number 206 was a tiger-shark, a long, lean man-eater, the terror of pearl-fishers and coral-divers."
"Hussein" was O'Brian/Russ' first full-length novel, and it also had a simple opening:
"In the Public Works Department of the Government of India there are a great number of elephants."
I think that O'Brian was still in the pattern of writing for boys when he wrote "Hussein," as his writing style was charmingly simple, his plot full of action and twists and surprises at every turn.
"Testimonies" (also called "Three Bear Witness") had a simple opening:
"Mr Pugh, I came to ask you some questions about your life in Cwm Bugail and about Mrs Vaughan of Gelli, Bronwen Vaughan."
Another of his early adult novels, "The Catalans" (also called "The Frozen Flame") had a simple opening sentence:
"At Carcassonne the carriage emptied, and until Narbonne Dr. Roig had the compartment to himself."
"The Road to Samarcand" was a "boys'" book, and opened quite simply:
"The "Wanderer" ran faster with the freshening of the breeze; her bows cut into the choppy sea, throwing white hissing spray into the sunlight."
Following "The Golden Ocean," "The Unknown Shore," another "boys' book," had a longer, more punctuated, more complex opening:
"Mr Edward Chaworth of Medenham was a well-disposed, good-natured man with an adequate fortune, an amiable wife and a numerous family: he thought the world an excellent place, and he could suggest no way in which it could be improved, except for the poachers and the Whigs - they would be abolished in an ideal world, and the trout in his stream would be a trifle larger."
Yet, "Richard Temple," clearly an adult novel, written AFTER "The Golden Ocean" and "The Unknown Shore," had a very simple opening:
"Twenty-seven tiles from wall to wall, thirty-five from floor to roof."
But by the time O'Brian wrote "Master and Commander," something changed. "Master and Commander" opened with somewhat more of an O'Brianesque first sentence:
""The music-room in the Governor's House at Port Mahon, a tall, handsome, pillared octagon, was filled with the triumphant first movement of Locatelli's C major quartet."
I don't think the simple opening was strictly related to the intended audience, then. Some time between 1962 and 1969, O'Brian's style of sentence structure (and his fluency with dialogue), changed. I don't think the change was the product of editing: he proved himself thoroughly resistant to editorial "tinkering;" I would guess that he read something that had a resounding influence on him: or he picked up on an improvement through his translations of the works of other writers. I doubt that any editor would have LENGTHENED and COMPLEXIFIED an author's opening; quite the contrary. I would further hazard to guess that as his editors attempted to shorten/simplify his openings, he perversely lengthened/complexified them, and did it so well that he was able to pull off some of the most stupendous openings in all of literature.
This hypothesis doesn't hold up throughout - Post Captain and HMS Surprise both had simple openings. However, I think there was a trend after that towards longer, more complex first sentences.
(On an unrelated tangent concerning first sentences, I notice that most of his opening sentences evoke emotions, in contrast to most other popular writers who try to hook the reader with an unmistakable action sequence from the very first sentence. Perhaps this is evidence of O'Brian's confidence that his openings are absorbing enough without blood and gore; or perhaps he wasn't concerned to retain large numbers of readers, writing solely for his own satisfaction and his art).
=====
To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful
Aubrey-Maturin series, please see
http://www.ericahouse.com/browsebuy/fiction/wenger/index.html
This is something that I first learned a little over a year ago but didn't raise here at the time.
The original publisher of The Golden Ocean and The Unknown Shore was Rupert Hart-Davis. Hart-Davis was a close friend (and later literary executor) of Arthur Ransome. Arthur Ransome was collecting and editing nautical literature classic books for Hart-Davis at the time. Arthur Ransome had copies of both TGO and TUS in his personal collection of books.
Ransome is a oldish master's mate/midshipman in both novels. He is described as hairy and large and seems fond of simple humour. Arthur Ransome was a large man, balding but had a bushy moustache. His sense of humour does not seem to be too sophisticated and he wrote books for children and had a somewhat childlike outlook. He would have been in his sixties at the time.
Are the parallels coincidental?
Did POB meet Arthur Ransome and decide to capture some of his character in his books?
Will we ever know?
--
Adam Quinan
'Grab a chance and you won't be sorry for a might-have-been'
Commander Ted Walker R.N.
Somewhere around 43° 46' 21"N, 79° 22' 51"W
For some of my family history see
http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/quin.htm
TGO, shurely?
Yeah, but I was embarassed to return and correct it again
: }
In a message dated 7/1/01 1:29:17 PM, stephen_maturin@REBELSPY.NET writes:
everyone mistaking Keppel for something other than what he is
Strange how POB, a writer who takes great pains to measure time and distance, sometimes--when it suits him--plays merry hell with chronology.
Like that hilarious scene where PP thinks Keppel is a merely a small boy, and is shocked to find that the small boy has five years seniority on him. But, in the book, midshipman Keppel is indeed a small boy, though one with a lot of sea time...and yet, the actual Keppel, at the time of Anson's voyage, was a midshipman aged 15.
Charlezzzz, having found a nit
How exciting, to embark on a good, closely-reasoned discussion with you good, close readers! I am so glad you suggested this book, I've enjoyed it very well and originally had no intention to read it.
What do we learn from this fine, lively opening to the narrative about POB's views of Irish identity? Here are some things that struck me immediately:
1) I didn't know that Irish language had such a nationalistic role before the 19th century as POB implies here. See, for example, Liam's speech on page 15, in which he reproaches Sean for writing poetry in "the language of servants." Irish Gaelic is the voice of pride in being Irish (see also page 64--Peter quells a distubance below decks in Irish.)
I've notices the loving way that POB uses Irish/Irish English in the canon as well. It always seems to me that there is a meaning to the way he uses Irish that I'm getting but can't articulate.
2) Peter's Irish family is a warm, intact family. Compare this to some of the English characters in POB's other works, including the canon. My impression is that the English families seem somehow looser. (Certainly the Aubreys!) What do you think?
3) "Irish temper"" POB buys into the stereotype, here and in the canon, of Irish people as quick to anger. ("choleric"?) How do you read this? In some ways I found it troubling.
(I'm not Irish myself but sometimes I lose my temper too-- on this list, never in life!)
Ruth A.
Susan Wenger wrote:
Following "The Golden Ocean," "The Unknown Shore," another "boys' book," had a longer, more punctuated, more complex opening:
"Mr Edward Chaworth of Medenham was a well-disposed, good-natured man with an adequate fortune, an amiable wife and a numerous family: he thought the world an excellent place, and he could suggest no way in which it could be improved, except for the poachers and the Whigs - they would be abolished in an ideal world, and the trout in his stream would be a trifle larger."
To us this is clearly a tribute to or imitation of Jane Austen; I think we now know when he read Austen. As his later works had numerous quotes from and references to Austen and her characters she must have made quite an impression on him. This might be an interesting topic for a much longer dissertation.
Larry & Wanda
--
Larry Finch
::finches@bellatlantic.net larry@prolifics.com
::LarryFinch@aol.com (whew!)
N 40° 53' 47"
W 74° 03' 56"
Larry & Wanda Finch
As his later works had numerous quotes from and
references to Austen and her characters she must have
made quite an impression on him. This might be an
interesting topic for a much longer dissertation.
Go for it Larry!
To us this is clearly a tribute to or imitation of Jane
Austen;
I think PO'B was setting the stage for us with the opening lines of TUS.
The style is soon discontinued, but many readers would at once be
transported into Austen's world, and a world of description was saved by
Patrick. Those unfamiliar with Jane Austen have enough to go on with,
and certainly the words themselves evoke the age, but for those who know
their English literature, they are given an added richness fom the very
first words.
For my part, I am charmed by the elegance of the first words of TGO and
the way in which the final words are mirror-imaged as Peter returns,
retracing his steps.
POB sometimes likes to include well known quotations, perhaps modified
to fit his characters. I spotted one in TGO page 138 of the Norton
paperback. "Scribble, scribble, scribble, Mr Palafox".
Originally supposedly said by George III (or one of his brothers) to Mr
Gibbon on receiving a thick tome from the author of The Decline and Fall
of the Roman Empire.
--
'Grab a chance and you won't be sorry for a might-have-been'
At 8:43 AM -0400 7/1/1, geo swan wrote:
...
Lt. Saumarez was Philip Saumarez, uncle of the famous James Saumarez who
appears in M&C. As a Captain, he was killed during the October 1747 battle
of Cape Finesterre.
Lt. Charles Saunders was senior to Philip Saumarez, and distinguished
himself as a fellow captain in the same battle. He eventually reached
Admiral of the Blue, and was briefly First Lord of the Admiralty.
Little Augustus Keppel became the most famous of the three, also serving as
First Lord. As an outspoken Whig, he took a very public stand opposing the
war against the American colonies, refusing to serve until France entered
the war.
Don Seltzer
It struck me that the beginning of Peter's journey was the word
"Good-bye."
Also, I like something about the way POB writes about emotions. Beginning
in the first paragraph, we read of the lump in Peter's throat, the view of
his family waving "swam in his eyes." Then "he had to collect himself."
Finally POB says "the pain of leaving them all was so much greater than
he had ever expected..." I appreciated that he showed this before telling
it. He does it again (major example) when FitzGerald climbs the rigging,
beginning on page 98. POB mentions *Peter's* anxiety watching
FitzGerald, but everything he tells us about Fitzgerald's state is
physical description until finally on page 102 he writes, "Fitzgerald was
up there, gripped by some awful horror..." Which we already knew that,
from the description of his progress, his posture, etc., and to finally
say "horror" just sort of puts a bow on it.
Anyone have more info or a URL on "the lament for the wild-geese," which
Liam is singing on page 13?
Thanks.
Dee Johnson
Does anyone know for sure whether the Irish place names mentioned in
Chapter 1 are fictional? I have not got out ALL my maps yet, but the ones
close at hand do not have Ballynasagart, or the blue mountains of Slieve
Donagh and Cruachan. On page 17 Liam claims to be the best judge of a
horse in County Galway, which narrows it down some.
Trying to place Peter's home town, I was also alerted by mention of the
cliffs (page 84, Peter mastheaded). They certainly sound like the Cliffs
of Moher, but those are in County Clare. (The Cliffs of Moher look a lot
like The Cliffs of Insanity in the movie, 'The Princess Bride.' ) Are
there in reality major 1500-ft cliffs in Galway? Or shall I just politely
let this be a fictional location?
Which it's a nit, I know.
Dee Johnson
"Caesar" was written by a twelve-year-old boy-- a precocious one, to be sure-- but a twelve year old. It is a sequence of actions. Few paragraphs have more than three senttences,
and many begin with "Then...".
Susan Wenger wrote:
Writing under his birth name, Richard Patrick Russ, he started his first
published novel (surely written for boys), "Caesar," quite simply:
First you must understand that I am a panda-leopard."
PO'B's natural history was somewhat lacking, and aside from birds, didn't seem to improve much with age. The activities of the orang-u-tans and other animals in TGS and the
lions in THD were almost as fanciful as the hybrid of a panda and a leopard in his first published effort. His marine biology throughout the canon was less precise and so fewer
obvious errors appeared. I would suspect that he took his descriptions from contemporary sources, and the errors would be those of the original observers.
--
wan7001@humboldt.edu
In a message dated 7/2/01 12:38:53 AM, w.a.nyden@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:
PO'B's natural history was somewhat lacking, and aside from birds, didn't
seem to improve much with age. The activities of the orang-u-tans and other
animals in TGS and the
lions in THD were almost as fanciful as the hybrid of a panda and a leopard
in his first published effort.
They might be summed up in a POB Bestiary (didn't the marvelous TH White write
one?) in wch the animals are symbolic beasts and act in accordance with their
symbolic natures?
Dee asked about the place names in TGO.
I have done a Google search and found Ballynasaggart in County Tyrone. I
have been less lucky with some of the other place names.
I thought I had found a meaning for it, but have been unable to find it
again. For what it is worth I remember reading that it meant "Place of the
priest", or something similar - possibly an Irish speaking lissun could
enlighten us further.
Of course the Palafox family may have lived in a totally different
Ballynasaggart.
Which brings me to the name Palafox. The only other literary context where
I have seen this name is in Michener's "Mexico". Google has led me to other
references, including one to Puebla in Mexico, home of the oldest library in the
Americas:
"Here you'll find the oldest library in the Americas, the Biblioteca
Palafoxiana (Palafox Library), which was started in 1645 with a gift of 5,000
volumes. The library now contains over 43,000 volumes, with the oldest book in
its collection written in 1493."
See:
http://gomexico.about.com/travel/gomexico/library/weekly/aa041899.htm
There was a Bishop Palafox in Mexico who seemed to share Stephen Maturin's
anti-Jesuitical feelings.
May 14, 1648: Pope Innocent X by a special Brief reproved Bishop Palafox of
Angelopolis, Mexico, for
suspending the Jesuits. Palafox had at one time professed greater attachment to
the Society, but after
the Jesuits refused to pay certain contributions or tithes which they deemed
unjust, he became a bitter enemy.
See:
http://www.companysj.com/news/return0506.html
There is a Palafox street and Palafox Pier in Pensacola but the only
references I have seen to
Palafoxes in Ireland are in relation to a certain historic novel set in the time
of Admiral Anson.
Finally to grog. Rum was the spirit served to the Royal Navy when available
since the
capture of Jamaica, but it was only in 1740, during this war, that Admiral
Vernon, the non-balloonist,
ordered it served mixed with water. This was nicknamed "grog" after the Admirals
grogram cloak.
Martin Watts
Following is a message that George Swan sent to Searoom
in May. He gave me permission to forward it to the
gunroom when discussion opened for "The Golden Ocean."
--- geo swan
Reverend Walter chose to go home from Canton, aboard an
East Indiaman. Presumably he was entitled to a parson's
share of the prizes captured off the coast of South
America, and in that port they raided. Still not too
shabby.
Presumably the supernumary officers from the other
ships were entitled to their share of those prizes too.
And, I presume, they were free to take that same East
Indiaman home.
IIRC the wreck of the Wager brought around changes in
the way an officer's commission worked. IIRC, prior to
the wreck of the Wager, an officer's authority ended when
the ship was lost. So, presumably, their commissions
ended when their ships were scuttled?
(I'll mention, in passing, for those who don't already
know, that POB wrote two novels about Anson's expedition:
"The Golden Ocean" describing the experiences of an
inexperienced midshipman aboard the ship that returned
successfully, after capturing an enormous fortune aboard
the yearly Spanish treasure ship.
The other novel, "The Unknown Shore", describes the
experience of the more experienced midshipman Jack Byron,
grandfather to the famous poet, and his particular
friend, a young, unworldly, but very intelligent surgeon,
aboard HMS Wager, one of Anson's ships that was
shipwrecked in the extremely isolated and desolate far
southern coast of Chile. Discipline failed after the
ship was wrecked. The survivors endured incredible
hardship. Tom Pullings tells Stephen about his
grandfather's experiences aboard this wreck, in a
foreshadowing of the discipline problems that were later
faced by Jack and company aboard HMS Leopard.)
Anyhow, the officers of the other ships could have
sailed for home from Canton. Why didn't they? Maybe
they couldn't afford the passage home? Maybe they
couldn't find anyone who would loan them the price of a
passage home, on the strength of their anticipated prize
money? Maybe they thought their careers would be better
served aboard the Gloucester, even as supernumaries,
outside the chain of command, than on the beach. The
voyage home would take half a year, by which time the war
could be over. And there was no guarantee they would get
a position aboard a ship even if the war wasn't over.
However, they did contribute to the capture of the
Manila prize and brought suit to get officers' shares
(lost on appeal).
If I had the responsibility of adjuticating their
appeal, I would have asked whether Commodore Anson
assigned these officers responsibilities in the watch
bill? Did they stand a regular watch in turn with the
Gloucester's other officers?
If they are standing a watch, a lapse in their
professional judgement could lead to the loss of the
ship, or it could lead to a delay that prevented the
Gloucester from meeting the Spanish ship. It is a heavy
responsibility. One that merits higher pay and a bigger
share of the prize money.
If those officers didn't share in these
responsibilities should they share in the rewards?
Doesn't seem fair, especially in the case of the
Tyrals, since Anson ordered the ship to be destroyed
since, IIRC, there weren't enough men to sail the
Centurion.
As County Tyrone is landlocked and Peter Palafox was an experienced sea
sailor of curraghs, I suspect that he lived in a more coastal
Ballynasaggart.
Slieve Donagh means Donagh's hill or mountain and Donagh is a not
uncommon Irish name, Cruachan is a mountain in Scotland but also has
Irish references.
There is also a reference later to Peter having a good head for heights
(while mastheaded) and mentions the very high cliffs of his native
parts. The cliffs of Moher on the west coast of Co. Clare facing the
Aran Islands are among the highest in Europe. I once camped near the top
of them and in the morning was able to watch a school of porpoises
swimming in the bay below a long way down. Much of Co. Clare is very
poor land agriculturally, though the natural history of the Burrens is
interesting. This would account for the poverty of the Re. Palafox's
living. Here is a URL including a picture of O'Brien's Tower.
Sin é go díreach a Mháirtín. Ballynasaggart is an Anglicisation of Baile na
Sagart,
Baile denoting town/village and sagart is Gaelic for priest. But it is a
curious one,
the typical Anglicisation would be Ballysaggart, which is a coastal village
in
Co.Waterford, cf
Paul, not a fearful Jesuit
Susan wrote:
I would further hazard to guess that as
his editors attempted to shorten/simplify his openings,
he perversely lengthened/complexified them, and did it so
well that he was able to pull off some of the most
stupendous openings in all of literature.
Well, it's a matter of opinion, of course, but I think PO'B's later
beginnings are, for the most part, weak, certainly compared to his
tremendous endings, as well as much of the stuff in the middle.
Thanks to Susan for her comparison of some of PO'B's beginnings.
In my opinion, Richard Temple, which is perhaps PO'B's weakest novel (though
perhaps also the most revelatory of PO'B the man), has the strongest
beginning: "Twenty-seven tiles from wall to wall, thirty-five from floor to
roof." (This, as we soon learn, is a description of RT's prison cell.) Very
powerful, I think, designed to draw the reader in immediately, and its
purpose is helped by its unorthodox grammatical structure: there's no verb,
not in either part of the sentence, but it LOOKS complete, so it would be
easy to not completely notice at a first reading, so that the reader is
triply drawn in: the surface of his mind is reading the text; while a second
layer, at a semi-conscious level, is wondering, "Thirty-seven tiles?
Thirty-five? What does this refer to?"; and a third layer, at the
sub-conscious level, dimly perceives something lacking (the missing verb):
so the reader presses on, not noticing at all how the first sentence has
made him eager for the second.
The Golden Ocean, I think, has PO'B's second best beginning, but I'll return
to that in a moment.
His other early beginnings are also good (many showing effective uses of
alliteration), but I think his Aubrey-Maturin beginnings are fairly
unremarkable; M&C, for example: "The music-room in the Governor's House at
Port Mahon, a tall, handsome, pillared octagon, was filled with the
triumphant first
movement of Locatelli's C major quartet." Well, that's not bad, but I don't
think it's particularly memorable or compelling, and it's certainly not one
of the best written passages in the book. Mind you, I think the later books
are much better as wholes than the early works, but I think the beginnings
get worse.
Returning to Golden Ocean:
What I like about the beginning is the sheer drama and poetry of it, with
"good-bye", repeated many times, like the chorus of a song:
"'Good-bye,' they were all crying. 'Good-bye, Peter. Good-bye, good-bye.'
And he meant to call out 'Good-bye' again to all of them, but the lump in
his throat choked the cry to no more than a squeak.
"'Good-bye, Peter,' they were calling still; and clearly came after him the
voice of old Turlough, 'Peter, come home soon, with your pockets full of the
Spanish gold.'
"At the bottom of the hill, where the turning came, he looked round and saw
the handkerchiefs waving white on the hillside and he held up his hand to
wish them farewell: and he watched the twinkle of their waving, though it
swam in his eyes, until the bend of the road and the long stack of turf hid
them all from sight."
And its a nice reversal of expectation, since it begins with an ending
(Good-bye). Then the beginning is framed nicely by the ending (which ends
with a beginning):
"'Welcome, Peter,' they called. 'Welcome home from the sea.'
"'Welcome home from the Golden Ocean," all waving. 'Welcome home from the
Golden Sea.'
"And he was down from his horse and running to greet them. 'Welcome home,
Peter darling. Welcome home from the sea.'"
Finally, I'll note about GO's beginning, that PO'B uses very similar imagery
and language at the end of The Hundred Days:
"'God bless,' called Queenie; and 'Liberate Chile, and come home as soon as
ever you can,' called her husband, while the children screeched out very
shrill, fluttering handkerchiefs. And at the very end of the mole, when the
frigate turned westward along the Strait with a following breeze, stood an
elegant young woman with a maidservant, and she too waving, waving,
waving..."
John Finneran
In a message dated 7/2/01 4:18:58 PM, John.Finneran@PILEOFSHIRTS.COM writes:
I think his Aubrey-Maturin beginnings are fairly
unremarkable; M&C, for example: "The music-room in the Governor's House at
Port Mahon, a tall, handsome, pillared octagon, was filled with the
triumphant first
movement of Locatelli's C major quartet." Well, that's not bad, but I don't
think it's particularly memorable or compelling,
Ah, but...
this was the first sentence I read of any of POB's works, and it fairly riz
me up from my chair to cheer. Because here was this writer crying out, "You
may think that I'm writing just another pale tone-deaf copy of Forester, but
hell no--here's the challenge direct."
And it was. And he won.
Charlezzzz
"And they treated me to a famous rum-punch, which we drank, roaring and
laughing like anything, until Mr Brett sent to ask were we attempting to raise
the Devil, and if so he was to be told the minute he appeared, in order to
read him in at once, the ship being so short-handed." (Ch. 10)
Matt Cranor
Here is a URL including a picture of O'Brien's Tower.
Most impressive. If Peter had the experience of these cliffs (or others
similar) then the sense of height and the ocean view from the
comapritively modest height of a warship's mainmast would scarce trouble
him - it would be very like going home. If I have the opportunity, I
like sitting by myself on a high place overlooking the sea and thinking
my own thoughts, so being mastheaded would probably be no great trial
for Peter.
The URL claims "Even at the end of June with an overcast sky and strong
winds blowing in off the Atlantic Ocean, the temperatures can reach down
into the mid 30's." Whilst temps in the mid 30s 2ould be very welcome
just now, this would be all the more reason for Peter not to feel out of
place. He is used to wind and rain and cold already, so the wet life of
a man'o'war would be another pleasant reminder of home!
I felt a huge burst of joy when I got to page 231
(chapter 12) and young Palafox seeks to keep a secret,
saying "Tace is Latin for a candlestick."
- Susan, getting the subject line right for a change
Quare: On page 196 (Ch. 11) of "The Golden Ocean," the
men have taken the treasure of Paita, and are wrangling
over their shares. Commodore Anson insisted on fair
shares to all, and had thrown his own on the heap on the
deck. Did this really happen? At that point, Paita was
a HUGE treasure of gold and silver, and the Commodore's
share was 3/8 of that fortune. Did the real Anson give
up his treasure, or did O'Brian invent that?
In chapter four, when Peter is invited to dinner with the Commodore, he is
asked to tell about the boats which rescued the crew of a brig that had gone
aground on " the reef by Maan Point" back home in Ballynasaggart.
"There is a frame, sir," said Peter, "of wood that will bend, and that we tie
together: then we sew bul skins to that for the very best boats, and dress
them with the oil from the sharks that we catch."
As Peter calls these boats, they are the "curraghs" that are still used in
the West of Ireland, particularly in the Aran Islands off the coast of Galway.
So the Waterford town is out of the running, since it is on the southeast
coast!
They are no longer made of skin, but, most recently, of tarred canvas over
the wooden frame.
Did anyone see John Sayles recent film, "The Secret of Roan Inish"?
There is a scene in which the heroine's grandfather is heating tar to coat
his curragh.
I daresay the curragh is related to or is the descendent of the ancient
"coracles", round skin boats over a frame, that were used by the Welsh, as
well as the Irish. ( And still may be, for all I know!)
Jean A.
Jean wrote:
I daresay the curragh is related to or is the descendent of the ancient
"coracles", round skin boats over a frame, that were used by the Welsh, as well
as the Irish. ( And still may be, for all I know!)
Not to mention Northumbrian spokeshavers, according to Michael Flanders. See
http://members.tripod.com/~TimothyPlatypus/FaS/hat_design.html
Kerry
=====
In a message dated 07/02/2001 5:29:21 PM Central Daylight Time,
susanwenger@YAHOO.COM writes:
"Tace is Latin for a candlestick."
I don't get it.
Mary S, feeling stupid
Ah, but think you, what is the Latin for prowlstrake?
In this book we have many of the characters, phrases, scenes and tricks
of the Aubreyad to come. I have been listening to the audiobook, and
chuckling over the first appearance of familiar sayings, such as
"which", or the gammoning of new hands, or the Irishisms of Peter and
particularly Sean, or the "do ye smoke it, cully?" humour of Ransome or,
or a hundred and one things, for all love! 'Tis the grand read of the
world, your honour dear, because, because why, because it is old
familiar ground long before Aubrey and Maturin make their appearance.
And, as with the Aubreyad, we see in TGO the foreshadowing of things to
come, at all levels and all scales. The title itself gives the game
away, but on the very first page we learn of the adventure and its
nature and we gradually build up to the ocean of gold itself. The book
is full of these things. We get a hint of things to come, all but
un-noticed, lost in the detail, but in due course it is visited on us in
full force.
I have just been reading of Ransome's witticisms at dinner with the
Commodore, and the book by "W.W. Gent", which we had first met many
pages before when Peter is sick with the scurvy, is brought back, hiding
in Ransome's bosom. He attempts to conceal it, but he is "a tolerably
inefficient liar" and Peter smokes it, chases him into the berth and is
brought up with a round turn by his companions, who are seeking revenge
for the "prowlberk" and "plashingstrake" of still earlier.
So not only are we foretasted here of the delights to come, we are given
a taste of the tactic, which O'Brian later used to great effect,
sometimes foreshadowing an event a book or two or three in the future.
Mary wrote:
"Tace is Latin for a candlestick."
I don't get it.
But Jack did, and liked it so much he used the joke himself. Phrase and
fable quotes it from chapter 10 of Fielding's "Amelia", published 1751. Jack may
have read it in Fielding, but did Fielding hear it from Peter Palafox?
Martin Watts
--- John Finneran
its
purpose is helped by its unorthodox grammatical
structure: there's no verb,
not in either part of the sentence,
Which he pulled the same stunt in "The Wine-Dark Sea:"
"A purple ocean, vast under the sky and devoid of all
visible life apart from two minute ships racing across
its immensity."
No verb. (Well, no predicate). And the word "minute"
can throw the reader off for a second. (Hor hor - minute:
second). With no context established yet, "two minute"
makes you think of time until you finish the sentence.
POB likes to put his reader directly into the action,
into the physical setting. He paints very vivid
word-pictures of a scene without imposing on you what the
character is thinking just then. YOU are there, you get
to think about what it is like to be there, without being
told what to think.
- Susan
Ruthie wrote the other day:
3) "Irish temper" Pob buys into the stereotype, here and in the canon, of
Irish people as quick to anger. ("choleric"?) How do you read this? In some
ways I found it troubling.
Part of Ruthie's qualms may be a reaction to FitzGerald's propensity for
dueling in TGO.
Remember Stephen and Dillon in M &C?
They recall how often they had been "called out" in their youth, Stephen
while a student at Trinity.
The late, very much missed Ken Stickney, of Searoom, wrote about dueling in
Ireland in the Searoom Journal a few years ago.
He wrote that "the classic rules of the duel in the English-speaking world
were drawn up at the Clonmel summer assizes in 1777 and were known ever
afterwards in Ireland as The Twenty-Six Commandments."
Of course, the practice of duelling was not confined to Ireland, but was
prevalent all over Europe at the time.
Ken wrote that "It was appropriate that the rules of the duel were drawn up
in Ireland, for the Irish were the most notorious duellists not only in
Europe, but throughout the world. When the French drew up their rules of the
duel in the eighteenth century, they agreed that anyone could act as a second
in a duel except a Turk or an Irishman: A Turk, because it was unfitting
that an infidel should see Christian blood shed, and an Irishman, because an
Irishman liked a fight too much to try to reconcile the opponents, which was
part of a second's duty.
Here are a few of the "Commandments" that have POB applications:
IX. All imputations of cheating at play, races, etc., to be considered
equivalent to a blow, but may be reconciled after one shot, on admitting
their falsehood and begging pardon publicly.
X. Any insult to a lady under a gentleman's care or protection to be
considered as by one degree a greater offence than if given to the gentleman
personally, and to be regarded accordingly.
XI. Offences originating or accruing from the support of ladies' reputations
to be considered as less unjustifiable than any other of the same class, and
as admitting of slighter apologies by the aggressor. This is to be
determined by the circumstances of the case, but always favourably to the
lady.
XV. The challenged has the right to choose his own weapons unless the
challenger gives his honour he is no swordsman, after which, however, he
cannot decline any second species of weapon proposed by the challenged.
XX. Seconds are bound to attempt reconciliation before the meeting takes
place, or after sufficient firing or hits as specified.
XXI. Any wound sufficient to agitate the nerves and necessarily make the
hand shake must end the business for that day.
XXII. If the cause of meeting be of such a nature that no apology or
explanation can or will be received, the challenged takes his ground and
calls on the challenger to proceed as he chooses. In such cases firing at
pleasure is the usual practice, but may be varied by agreement.
The document ends:
N.B. All matters and doubts not herein mentioned will be explained and
cleared up by application to the Committee, who meet alternatively at Clonmel
and Galway at the quarter sessions for that purpose.
Crow Ryan, President.
Ken Stickney cites "The Duel: A History of Duelling, Spring Books, The
Hamlyn Publishing Group Ltd., London, 1970.
Jean A. ( Half Irish herself, but with a notably mild temperament. And the
Irish duelists we meet in POB are either members of the Irish "Ascendancy" ,
like FitzGerald, or upper-class Catholics, like Dillon, since duelling was a
"gentleman's" game.
A fascinating recent book is a biography of the Irish playwright Richard
Brinsley Sheridan ( "The Rivals", etc.)
( I'm sorry that the author's name escapes me.)
Sheridan engaged in a notorious duel in England that brought him fame and
fortune. It involved an elderly suitor of his future wife.
Later, Stephen's "cousin" Lord Edward Fitzgerald comes into the story. It
seems that he was in love with Sheridan's wife, and fathered her child.
Sheridan also loved his tubercular wife, and they agreed, Sheridan and
Fitzgerald, that the little girl, whom they both adored, would be raised as
Sheridan's own.
They were devastated when she died at the age of two.
(Her mother had predeceased her.)
To reiterate a cliche, history is often better that historical fiction!
Jean A.'s exploration of the history of Irish dueling was really
interesting! I know that duelling had a major role in some other cultures
than Ireland's--though I guess I'm most familiar with the practices of the
turn of the 20th century mitteleuropa.
I just finished Phineas Finn, Trollope's novel about an Irish member of
Parliament. The literary critic who introduced the book discussed mid-19th
century English stereotype of the upstart Irish man, who is oddly enough,
very similar to Trollope's hero. Duelling figures in the novel, as you may
gather, though Finn is not the character with the greatest difficulty
controlling his temper. (He can't control his perpetual falling in love,
but that's a different thing...)
Back to Golden Ocean: I wasn't even thinking of Fitzgerald's ridiculous
dueling when I complained about the temper issue. I was more thinking
about how Peter Palafox reacted to being baited with the epithet "Teague."
If you recall he has to be physically held down at one point--by four
midshipmen-- because he can't restrain himself once he starts fighting.
I'm sensitive to the issue of stereotyping, but also to the extent to
which POB identified with being Irish. Did he like the image of Irish
people as irascible because he himself could not control his temper? Or
did he use this temper issue to point out ways that Irish people were
unfairly described and treated? I must say I have appreciated POB's
restraint from confirming or intentionally going against type in his
descriptions of characters from many other ethnic groups.
Ruth A.
John wrote:
What I like about the beginning is the sheer drama and poetry of it,
with
"good-bye", repeated many times, like the chorus of a song...
Well put, John, I liked this too about the beginning/ending. I find it
ironic that "Goodbye" is a beginning and "Welcome home" is an ending, but
it must be ever so for those who go to sea.
From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM:
this was the first sentence I read of any of POB's works, and it fairly
riz
me up from my chair to cheer.
This opening (M&C) has enough specificity that I can imagine myself there.
A few specific details like the octagonal shape of the room and the exact
piece being played allow me to fill in the whole scene. This is POB's
long suit--telling enough detail to bring me into his world. I first got
addicted to the books because they provided a sure escape into another
world, a very interesting one.
Dee Johnson wrote:
This opening (M&C) has enough specificity that I can imagine myself there.
A few specific details like the octagonal shape of the room and the exact
piece being played allow me to fill in the whole scene. This is POB's
long suit--telling enough detail to bring me into his world. I first got
addicted to the books because they provided a sure escape into another
world, a very interesting one.
I agree with you. Even though the piece being played doesn't exist. (This was
discussed at the Smithsonian POB weekend last year. Probably a private joke of
POB's.)
Larry
--
Ruthie wrote:
"Back to golden Ocean: I wasn't even thinking of Fitzgerald's ridiculous
dueling when I complained about the temper issue. I was more thinking about
how Peter Palafox reacted to being baited with the epithet "Teague."
If you recall he has to be physically held down at one point -- by four
midshipmen -- because he can't restrain himself once he starts fighting."
It might be more understandable when you realize that the epithet "Teague" or
"Taig" was a put -down exclusively used for Irish Catholics and Peter is the
son of a Protestant minister.
The term - which is merely an Irish male name - has been used derisively up
until recent times.
"The Golden Ocean" is a delightful book, beautifully written, and I have
enjoyed it no end, but it presents an idealized picture of Ireland in 1740,
which was undergoing tremendous social upheavals and changes under the harsh
and discriminatory penal laws which were imposed a few decades before in the
aftermath of the Williamite wars.
That's OK! POB did not set out to write a serious social history in TGO!
POB was not stereotyping the Irish. He was giving us a glimpse of the deep
divisions in Irish society at the time.
The reality was much worse.
Jean A.
I shared this idea on searoom-l a few years ago.
The culture of dueling seems so foreign to us now. But
I suspect that, it might not seem so foreign to the kind
of inner city youngsters who end up in youth gangs.
If you were a member of the aristocracy, or the squirarchy --
if your father was a "gentleman", you'd probably inherit the
family wealth -- if you were the eldest son.
If you were a younger son, your prospects were much more
limited. How would this affect the self-esteem of those
younger sons? They may have had no real jobs they could be
proud of, just like inner city youth. They may have had to
struggle with the idea that they were sponging off the
generosity of their parents, or their older brother, not
dissimilar to inner city youth.
Would it make them over-compensate for the lack of a
satisfying source of real self-esteem by placing
inordinate value on their "honour". Would it make them
far too prone to take offense if someone was "dissing" them?
I am going to suggest that the "rep" of a street gang member
is not that different from the "honour" or "good name" of
a 19th century "gentleman". The street gang member may not
own anything else they really value. The younger son may
not own anything they really value.
Ruth A Abrams
I'm sensitive to the issue of stereotyping,
O'Brian's earliest works lean heavily on stereotyping, to
the point where they can get objectionable. The
characters' dialogue is stilted, their actions are
predictable from the stereotype, the way they talk is
over-done. What a difference from the Aubrey-Maturin
canon: I remember posting to this list during a
discussion of whether O'Brian held prejudices that
nowhere in the Aubrey-Maturin series could I predict what
a character would say or do based entirely on his ethnic
background.
- Susan
Ruth writes:
Back to Golden Ocean: I wasn't even thinking of Fitzgerald's ridiculous
dueling when I complained about the temper issue. I was more thinking
about how Peter Palafox reacted to being baited with the epithet "Teague."
If you recall he has to be physically held down at one point--by four
midshipmen-- because he can't restrain himself once he starts fighting.
With his pride and temper Fitzgerald could be modeled on several of
Robert Louis Stevenson's Highland Scot characters.
On the other hand Peter Palafox (Paradox?) is unprecedented and IMHO a
fantastic and improbable character... a mid 18th century Irish
Protestant son of a minister who can speak Gaelic and is immersed in
traditional Irish culture? Given the place and the time it is an
impossible mixture of race, religion and culture... it is equivilent to
a story where plantation owners in 1840 South Carolina speak Bantu and
immerse themselves and their families in the African culture of their
slaves.
I suppose O'Brian created Palafox and accepted the contradictions
(surely he know how improbable the character was) because he wanted an
Irish character in his Royal Navy story and it was the only way to
simply fit one in. Later he found a far better approach in M&C with his
masterful characterisations of the complex Maturin and the conflicted
James Dillon. It was O'Brian's decision to extend his reach and create
a Dillon rather than a Palafox that make TGO merely a pleasant read
while M&C and later works are much more.
Tom K
P.S. My liking for M&C is influenced by the story of my first ancestor
to come to North America. James Murphy was born in Wexford in 1766,
joined an Irish Regiment in 1793, returned to Wexford and "went out"
with the United Irishmen in 1798, fled Ireland, was pressed into the
Royal Navy, deserted in St. John, Newfoundland in 1804 and went to
Inverness County, Nova Scotia where his brother Dennis was Crown Land
Surveyor, was taken up for treason, escaped, married a daughter of one
of the locally influential MacDonalds, obtained a royal pardon and
substantial land & water grants, was lost at sea in 1816 and is now
immortalized by the place names Murphy's Pond and Murphy's Point, Port
Hood, Nova Scotia, Canada.
I didn't think unlikely that Peter Palafox could speak Irish Gaelic.
After all it was a small village and very few other people of their
class around. He would have learned Irish in the same way that the
British in India learned Hindi or Urdu, from the servants and local
villagers. My British parents were born in India and my father found
learning Farsi in Iran as an adult to be very easy, it is a very similar
language to Urdu which was spoken around him when he was small. Besides,
the Palafox family was probably as Irish as any of their parishioners
and neighbours, just richer and better educated.
tom wrote:
On the other hand Peter Palafox (Paradox?) is unprecedented and IMHO a
fantastic and improbable character... a mid 18th century Irish
Protestant son of a minister who can speak Gaelic and is immersed in
traditional Irish culture? Given the place and the time it is an
impossible mixture of race, religion and culture... it is equivilent to
a story where plantation owners in 1840 South Carolina speak Bantu and
immerse themselves and their families in the African culture of their
slaves.
Hmmm ... maybe I'm missing Tom's point here. I wonder if POB
had in mind the political and social careers of such mid-18th
men as Dean Swift. Many such Protestant Irishmen were
enthusiastic - even wildly enthusiastic - lovers of everything
authentically Irish (recall, Swift eventually advocated in print
the burning of everything English except their bread!); many
were either clergy themselves, or sons thereof; and - odd, I
confess, but entirely true - many joined the Royal Navy, needing
a 'respectable' career, and perhaps wanting to see the world. A
common feature amongst such folk was a feeling of old and
ancient allegiance to the King in his capacity as King of
Ireland; 'twas the dominance of London - the seat of the English
kingship, vested of course in the same man - that they
especially resented, together with all the power structures that
such dominance had put in place in their native land.
AGB
Hmmm ... maybe I'm missing Tom's point here. I wonder if POB
had in mind the political and social careers of such mid-18th
men as Dean Swift.
Well, Swift is an interesting individual to bring up but you have to
watch your time lines and keep in mind that Swift predates Peter Palafox
by two generations and was born, raised and educated in a totally
different world on the other side of that great dividing line of 1690.
Swift was a product of a era where the ancient Irish Catholic
aristocracy still had property, political influence and a place in
public life alongside the long established English landed class. After
the Williamite war both both groups were wiped out and replaced with a
new class of Protestant settler moving to Ireland to take grants of
confiscated land... the Protestant Ascendancy
Peter Palafox would have been part of the Protestant Ascendancy and come
of age at the height of the Penal Laws... a most bitter period of
anti-Catholic and anti-native Irish sentiment when Gaelic was a
proscribed language not to be seen in print and Catholics were
disenfranchised, could not own property, be educated, enter into leases
or own stock valued at over 5 pounds.
It would not be until the later part of the 18th century that a new
generation of liberal Irish Protestants emerged and formed much of the
leadership of the United Irishmen.
I should also point out that you can't always take Swift at face value.
He may have professed love for Irish culture but he also promoted some
peculiar notions in the field of nutrition (a pamphlet that should
certainly be kept out of the hands of our president... on the other hand
if it hasn't been made into a comic book we are probably safe).
Furthurmore Swift marched with William and died a Tory.
Tom K
On page 184 of TGO, Peter has an encounter with some irritable Spanish
ladies aboard a prize.
"Very good, Mr Palafox. And I tell you what," added the lieutenant
privately, clapping him warmly on the shoulder. "I won't forget this, my
dear fellow."
"Oh, if you please," cried Peter, writhing with anguish.
"What's the matter?"
"That is where she got home with the poker." "Oh, sir," he exclaimed,
"is it reasonable or just to carry a poker aboard in ten degrees south?"
"Where is that________cutter?" asked the Centurian.
"Brown paper, vinegar and Venice treacle, Mr Palafox," called the
lieutenant over the side, "to be applied twice every hour."
Venice treacle is a sovereign remedy against all sorts of poisons, so it
might be of some value in treating a poker wound. Vinegar must have been
used as a disinfectant. In Nutmeg of Consolation, Stephen instructs the
hands to use vinegar to wash down both the boat and the Midshipman after
they had been exposed to smallpox. But I don't understand the point of the
brown paper. Does anyone know?
Mary A
Perhaps the brown paper was to hold thel vinegar-Venice treacle mixture in place?
Gerry Strey
tom wrote:
Well, Swift is an interesting individual to bring up but you have to
watch your time lines and keep in mind that Swift predates Peter Palafox
by two generations and was born, raised and educated in a totally
different world on the other side of that great dividing line of 1690.
Swift was a product of a era where the ancient Irish Catholic
aristocracy still had property, political influence and a place in
public life alongside the long established English landed class. After
the Williamite war both both groups were wiped out and replaced with a
new class of Protestant settler moving to Ireland to take grants of
confiscated land... the Protestant Ascendancy
Yes, Swift was and is a fascinating and contradictory character
- as is Palafox. Although of course a very much older man, his
enthusiasm for things native comes very much only in his later
years, and was then shared quite widely by his much younger
contemporaries. He died in 1745; Golden Ocean opens in, what,
1738-9? Young Peter therefore grows up in Ireland precisely
during the time of this curious (and admittedly rather
antiquarian-based, as it lacked any focused political
aspirations or agenda) period of 'revival'.
As to the members of the Ascendancy arriving in Ireland
post-1690 and 'wiping out' their predecessors, I can honestly
say I have never before heard this either asserted or argued.
Which is not to say that the Penal Laws were less than unjust
and downright wicked - but their principal effected on the
landed gentry was to force them to 'convert' from Catholicism to
Protestantism if they wanted to maintain the integrity of their
estates and play any part in political or cultural life. And
that's exactly what most of them did.
However, I am at one with Tom in his delight in the later POB
portrayal of James Dillon. As Maturin notes, Dillon has become
a closet Catholic, this being one of the many sources of his
inner torment. In this context, it's perhaps worth noting
important background that POB assumes readers know, but doesn't
make explicit. Most of the Penal LAws were dismantled in 1782
and the immediate succeeding years, enabling minor gentry, as I
imagine the Dillon family to be, to return to Catholicism with
no direct economic adverse consequences (though the 'law on the
ground', as it were, presented many difficulties). However the
Test Act parts were preserved, prohibiting Catholics from a
number of occupations, the officer ranks of the armed forces
included. Hence Dillon's problem (which he's not without a few
others anyway.....). In my recent 'Irish Officers of the Royal
Navy' article, I offer a minor speculation that, if you look at
the family names of these men, it's very difficult to conceive
that they were really all Protestants in anything other than
name. Was there a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy in place, at
all? POB certainly presents that as possible.
AGB
In a message dated 07/05/2001 9:13:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mlaktb@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
But I don't understand the point of the
brown paper. Does anyone know?
An old nursing remedy for little wounds or cuts that can't
be bandaged -for instance, the corner of the mouth- is to
dampen a piece of brown paper towel a tad bigger than
the wound and press it to the wound. It seems to stop
the bleeding. The fibres, perhaps?
Ruth51
Remembered from childhood:
JACK AND JILL
Jack and Jill went up the hill,
When up Jack got and off did trot,
--
In a message Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 Jean A wrote:
In chapter four, when Peter is invited to dinner with the Commodore, he
is asked to tell about the boats which rescued the crew of a brig that had gone
aground on " the reef by Maan Point" back home in Ballynasaggart. "There is
a frame, sir," said Peter, "of wood that will bend, and that we tie together:
then we sew bul skins to that for the very best boats, and dress them with the
oil from the sharks that we catch." As Peter calls these boats, they are the
"curraghs" that are still used in the West of Ireland, particularly in the Aran
Islands off the coast of Galway. So the Waterford town is out of the running,
since it is on the southeast coast!
Which you convinced me, and so I got on to the helpful cartographers in the
Ordnance Survey Office of Ireland, here in the Phoenix Park, and they
specifically checked the coasts of Clare and Galway which can be seen from
Inishmaan, the central (Meán) of the three Aran Islands. There is no
Ballynasaggart to be found there, alas. Not on the highest resolution maps,
nor in the database of addresses they maintain. The only one on the whole
island, according to them, is the one in Co. Tyrone mentioned by Martin
Watts.
However, they dug deeper, and went to the cultural maps of the Burren and
the Aran Islands published by Tim Robinson in the early seventies, and still
in print. These are a unique and beautiful set of maps which seek to reflect
the folklore heritage of this area. On them is found a Cathracha an
tSagairt (the Town of the Priest) which is not a town at all, but a place or
rock where Mass was said in Penal times, north-east of Kilfenora, and from
which Inis Meán is clearly visible. It may well have been mentioned in the
numerous books that have written on the area over the years.
I found another candidate in Baile an tSagairt near An Spidéal (Spiddal),
anglicised to Ballintaggart. This is on the south coast of Co. Galway, an
Irish-speaking town with uninterrupted views to Inis Meán. Baile an tSagairt
refers to one priest, Baile na Sagart refers to a plurality of them.
I'm inclined to think O'Brian was practising on us with his references to
Cruachan, Donagh and Ballynasaggart. I think they all refer to St. Patrick.
Crom Cruach was the pagan God worshipped by the Druids at the time of
Patrick's conversion of Ireland, the Cross of Donagh is the oldest carved
stone cross in Ireland (c. 650AD) and is associated with Patrick, who was,
of course, The priest. I seem to remember Joyce playing similar game with
"Cruachan" and "soggort" in Finnegan's Wake.
They are no longer made of skin, but, most recently, of tarred canvas over
the wooden frame. Did anyone see John Sayles recent film, "The Secret of Roan
Inish"? There is a scene in which the heroine's grandfather is heating tar to
coat his curragh.
I haven't seen that film, but the best film depiction I ever saw of the
currach is in the 1934 Robert Flaherty film Man of Aran. It caused a bit of
a stir in its day, and O'Brian might well have seen it in his younger days.
Paul
Ruth,Bill and Gerry probably have the right of it, but I can't help but
feel there is something else involved here. If the paper is used merely to
hold the Venice treacle and vinegar in place, why wouldn't a linen bandage
work just as well? The idea of the fibers helping to stop the blood is
quite sound, I think, but it was used for aches and pains without blood as
well it seems. I was stunned this afternoon by one of those weird
coincidences. After I had posted my question, I settled in to watch the
video of "sharpe's Rifles". I have waded through many of the novels now and
thought it would be fun to see one of the films. In the film, Mr. Sharpe
and the old poacher, Dan Hagman, have a conversation about how the rainy
weather makes their old war wounds act up. Hagman tells Sharpe that the
best cure for aches of that sort is paraffin oil and best brown paper! No
oozing blood here, and the oil would not need the paper as a carrier. (And
I doubt that paraffin oil would be of much use either, unless it had chiles
or willow bark mashed up in it, but that is a different question).
And I enjoyed the video very much, although it certainly took liberties
with the plots of the novels. But the books didn't have Sean Bean in them,
more is the pity. I say Be D----- to comfort and practicality. Lets bring
back those tight uniforms!
Mary A
Paul writes:
"I'm inclined to think O'Brian was practising on us with his references
to Cruachan, Donagh and Ballynasaggart. I think they all refer to St. Patrick.
Crom Cruach was the pagan God worshipped by the Druids at the time of Patrick's
conversion..."
I, too, believe that POB was 'practising' on us with his supposed place names
in TGO, but I don't see the Patrick connection! :)
I believe that 'Cruachan' means 'pointed mountain', of which there are plenty
in Ireland. Someone also wrote that he found a Cruachan in Scotland, which
is not surprising, since they share the Gaelic.
(Incidentally, I recommend the current issue (July/August 2001) of Archeology
magazine. "Scotland's Irish Roots" is an article worth reading which
clarifies some of the discussion which took place on the list a week or so
ago!)
I also remember seeing Flaherty's film years ago.
Jean A.
Gary wrote:
"As to the members of the Ascendancy arriving in Ireland post-1690 and
'wiping out' their predecessors, I can honestly say I have never before heard
this either asserted or argued. Which is not to say that the Penal Laws were
less than unjust and downright wicked - but their principal effect on the landed
gentry was to force them to 'convert' from Catholicism to Protestantism if they
wanted to maintain the integrity of their estates and play any part in political
or cultural life. And that's exactly what most of them did."
When Patrick Sarsfield surrendered to William at Limerick, as part of the terms
of surrender the king promised the Catholics protection from religious persecution
and the "same limited religious freedom that they had enjoyed in the reign of
Charles II." Also, before the Battle of Aughrim he promised that the Catholics
would "have a share in government, freedom of worship, and restoration of their
estates and of one-half of all the churches in the country."
(Oddly enough, at the time, William was allied with Catholic allies on the
Continent as well as the Pope, while James was supported by France).
Freed of his obligations to his Catholic allies on the continent, and the
Pope, the provisions of the Treaty of Limerick were broken.
Over a million acres were confiscated. "All the Catholic hierarchy were
ordered into exile under pain of imprisonment or deportation. The religious
orders were banished. Catholics were barred from public office, from
Parliament, from the university, the Bench, and the Bar; they were totally
disenfranchised and forbidden to teach or keep schools. ( A Catholic Irishman
could not own a horse worth more than 5 pounds, and had to surrender it if
offered that amount.) A Catholic who changed his religion could claim all the
family estate to the exclusion of his father and brothers, and a few were
tempted to do this. Protestant "Discoverers" who reported on Catholic
neighbours whom they could find in breach of the Penal Laws were awarded
their property in return; a number of men enriched themselves by this method
."
However, other righteous Protestants and 'converts of convenience', who had
converted to hold on to their lands, held property in trust for their
disabled Catholic friends and relatives. Probably the most prominent of
these cases was that of the family of the O'Conor Don ( mentioned in POB),
descendants of the last High King of Ireland at the time of the Norman
invasion. Protestant friends secretly and honorably held their property in
trust for a number of years. Sometime in the 18th century someone brought a
suit against them with the intent of gaining the property for themselves.
( At this point I forget how the suit was resolved, but thirty years ago I
met a woman who was writing a book about it and had been given access to
pertinent material by the family of the then O'Conor Don. I never found out
whether or not she finished it.)
Tens of thousands of Irish - the Wild Geese - left Ireland at this time.
Because of intermarriage and the gradual relaxation of the Penal Laws as the
18th century wore on some Catholics were able to rise in wealth and
position, and many Protestants and Catholics came to believe that they were
Irishmen first. At this time, before the Union in 1801, the Irish
Parliament was quite independant. The leaders of the United Irishman,
middle-class Ulster Presbyterians and upper-class Protestants like Lord
Edward Fitzgerald, Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmet considered thermselves Irish.
Many of the grievances of the American colonies regarding English
interference in trade and manufacture were shared by the Irish.
The Age of the Protestant Ascendancy in the 18th century, while full of the
most dreadful social injustice aimed at three-quarters of the population of
the island, was relatively peaceful and there was a glorious explosion of
architecture, arts and crafts, as well as literature.
Here are some quotes from Edmund Burke, speaking about " The laws against
popery in Ireland"
" They are not only excluded from all offices in church and state, but are
interdicted from the army and the law, in all its branches... Every
barrister, clerk, attorney, or solicitor is obliged to take a solemn oath not
to employ persons of the persuasion; no, not as hackney clerks, at the
miserable salary of seven shillings a week. No tradesman of that persuasion
is capable of exercising his trade freely in any town corporate: so that they
trade and work in their own native towns as aliens, paying, as such
quarterage, and other charges and impositions...."
"All persons of that persuasion are dissabled from taking or purchasing
directly, or by trust, any lease, any mortgage upon land, any rents or
profits from land, any lease, interest, or permit of any land; any annuity
for life or lives, or years; or any estate whatsoever, chargeable upon, or
which may in any manner affect any lease."
"Popish schoolmasters of every species are proscribed by those acts, and is
is made felony to teach even in a private family. Being sent for education
to any popish school or college abroad, upon conviction, incurs ( if the part
sent has any estate or inheritance) a kind of unalterable and perpetual
outlawry. He is rendered incapable of any legacy or deed or gift; he
forfeits all his goods and chattels forever; and he forfeits for life all his
lands, hereditaments, offices and estate of freehold, and all trusts, powers,
or interests therein. All persons concerned in sending them or maintaining
them abroad, by the least assistance of money or otherwise, are involved in
the same disabilities, and subjected to the same penalties."
(It's hard to argue with Edmond Burke!)
I wrote:
As to the members of the Ascendancy arriving in Ireland
post-1690 and 'wiping out' their predecessors, I can honestly
say I have never before heard this either asserted or argued.
Which is not to say that the Penal Laws were less than unjust
and downright wicked - but their principal effected on the
landed gentry was to force them to 'convert' from Catholicism to
Protestantism if they wanted to maintain the integrity of their
estates and play any part in political or cultural life. And
that's exactly what most of them did.
And should, of course, have added that many tens of thousands
chose exile - the Wild Geese and all that - instead. The return
of many sons and grandsons of exiles post-1782 itself produced
horrible complications in land-ownership (with the peasantry, as
usual, getting the short end of an already short stick.....).
At the risk of wandering too far from Peter Palafox's
credibility as a character, US lissuns may be interested to be
reminded that, during this same period, exile was not just a
Catholic option. One of the most pernicious long-term effects
of the various colonial inflows, penal laws etc etc on the Irish
economy was the conversion of much of the land from 'tillage' to
'pasturage': ie from quality edible crops to quality meat /
wool. Less low cost, decent quality food was now locally
available to the peasantry (without you stole the sheep) and
much less traditional rural labour was needed. Result - a
peasantry, largely 'unemployed', dependent on subsistence
farming even in good years. Well, we all know the calamitous
effects of that a 100 or so years later when the miserable
little tubers caught the blight. But in the early 1700s it
reduced the demand for labour - and consequent reward - nearly
as much amongst the rural Scots settlers of the north as it did
elsewhere. They too left in their droves; but, not caring for
much of Catholic Europe or South America, and the Dissenters
amongst them not now finding Protestant England or Scotland any
more congenial, set off for North America, settling particularly
in the Southern colonies. It seems to me - subject to
correction - that many USA natives are not fully aware that the
first wave of Irish settlement here was of Ulster dissenters,
religious brothers and sisters of the Pilgrim Fathers, and every
bit as grim-faced, hard-working and determined.
AGB
It's amazing what Google turns up. First, a few other references:
A discussion group user, referring to the Jack and Jill rhyme's reference to
vinegar and brown paper, wrote of her childhood:
>We also used brown paper to stop nose bleeds. Take a small piece of brown
paper, fold it several times and place it inside the
>mouth, between the gum and upper lip. It will stop a nose bleed almost
immediately.
There were other references to this nose-bleed stopping method.
A folk medicine site says:
>Brown paper and vinegar were used for headaches and myrrh for deep cuts.
Burnt flour was also used for cuts.
A Canadian personal website comparing "our grandparents' time to now" also
refers to the brown paper and vinegar treatment:
>Place brown paper soaked in cold vinegar on the forehead to cure a
headache.
And from a UK "Health Spectrum" site:
>Nursery remedy
>When Jack broke his crown he applied vinegar and brown paper - and it
works! Soak a brown paper bag in malt vinegar and hold it >against your
bruises. Vinegar is also excellent as an inhalation: pour boiling water and
an equal amount of vinegar into a bowl: inhale >the steam with a towel over
your head.
Brown paper bags soaked in hot vinegar are also supposed to be good for
sprains.
The defunct rock band Eden Burning had an album entitled "Vinegar and Brown
Paper."
But maybe this is the answer. There's such a thing as vinegar paper, which
is essentially the ancient vinegar and brown paper in one prepared item. A
guy who calls himself "Vinegar Man" provides this amazing info (somewhat
edited by me):
>Cellulose is the major component of cotton, wood and plants that are used
for things like textiles, paper and construction materials. >Some beautiful
art work can be made with vinegar paper.
>Vinegar paper is what is technically referred to as microbial cellulose.
That is to say it is cellulose made by micro organisms. While >other types
of cellulose is harvested from plants, vinegar paper is made by bacteria.
>The the future of vinegar paper is great. It is presently being studied By
Dr. Malcome Brown at the University of Texas in Austin >Texas. He has been
studying it for many years and has discovered many great uses for this
paper. But they are not alone in the rush >to discover novel uses for this
unique material.
>Ajinomoto Co. along with Mitsubishi Paper Mills in Japan are busy
developing new ways to use the vinegar paper fibers in various
>paper products. Vinegar Paper is being investigated as a binder in papers.
It is made up of extremely small clusters of cellulose
>micro fibrils and this property adds to a lot of strength and durability to
the pulp when integrated into paper.
And especially this:
>Another novel use could be wound care. Johnson & Johnson has been
investigating the use of microbial cellulose as a liquid loaded
>pad for wound care since the early 1980's. Since then, a Brazilian
company, Biofill Industries, has continued the research on
>vinegar paper is beginning to market specific products made from it for the
wound care market.
>Dr. Brown and his team of researchers have developed a process to produce
molded objects of vinegar paper while it is growing. That >process would
make it possible to make non woven, shaped objects like artificial arteries,
vessels, skin, etc. And because vinegar
>paper is highly absorptive it will most likely be the center of a large
market in wound care and drug delivery.
>Sony Corporation worked with Ajinomoto to develop the first audio speaker
diaphragms using vinegar paper. The unique
>characteristics of vinegar paper is used to create a sound transducing
membrane which is about the best material available to meet
>the strict requirements for optimal sound reproduction.
Etc. (The stuff is also edible, and a form of it is, in fact, eaten
throughout Asia.)
Marian
Wow...........that lieutenant on the Centurian was really on to something!
Mary
AGH writes:
As to the members of the Ascendancy arriving in Ireland
post-1690 and 'wiping out' their predecessors, I can honestly
say I have never before heard this either asserted or argued.
Which is not to say that the Penal Laws were less than unjust
and downright wicked - but their principal effected on the
landed gentry was to force them to 'convert' from Catholicism to
Protestantism if they wanted to maintain the integrity of their
estates and play any part in political or cultural life. And
that's exactly what most of them did.
Ah, I spoke unclearly there. By "wiping out" I do not mean that the old
families were physically killed or deported, rather that they were wiped
away economically and politically. This happened not only to the Irish
Catholic gentry but also the old English and Norman Catholic families.
Under the Ascendancy the only legal societal roles for Catholics were as
uneducated laborers or tennants.
I am glad you also find Dillon fascinating. It may be that Palafox is
no more impossible than Dillon but in M&C O'Brian doesn't simply throw
this amazing creature out for us to swallow whole, instead he gives us
enough insight and background to understand how the character came to be.
I will contradict your statement that most landed gentry simply
converted to Catholicism... in 50 years time 11 million of the 20
million acres of land in Ireland were confiscated from the old gentry
and given to the new settlers of the Ascendancy and I recall one
estimate that by 1740 only 1/8th of all the land in Ireland remained in
the hands of old families of either faith.
Tom K
P.S. There was an error in my last post... I had intended to mention
that Swift went out with William and died a Tory *in an insane asylum*.
However that does not in any way diminish the fact that in writting "A
Modest Proposal" he became the very definition of (as Killick would say)
a saytr.
tom wrote:
I will contradict your statement that most landed gentry simply
converted to Catholicism... in 50 years time 11 million of the 20
million acres of land in Ireland were confiscated from the old gentry
and given to the new settlers of the Ascendancy and I recall one
estimate that by 1740 only 1/8th of all the land in Ireland remained in> the hands of old families of either faith.
Indeed: but we need the base too. In about 1690 only 1/4 of
land in Ireland was Catholic-held; as you say, by mid-Century
it had fallen to about 1/8. What was it Swift said: " how comes
it that every English clergyman sent to Ireland is waylaid
outside London and replaced by a highwayman"!
A glass with you, Sir, in memoriam James Dillon!
AGB
Mother of . . . vinegar! Which is that cloudy goop you sometimes get in
the bottom of a cask of vinegar, and can be used to start a new batch of
vinegar. So maybe that's what's making the cellulose. Which, as my husband
reminds me, is basically a sugar, a poly-saccaride.
Astrid Bear
We are accustomed to learning about some of POB's most significant plot points in the most indirect manner: in letters or diaries written long after the events, or
second- (even third-) hand, e.g., one character tells another what he has read in a newspaper.
A wonderful example of this appears in the Golden Ocean. A shattering sequence of storms and related disasters befalls the squadron in the blank space between the end
of Chapter 11 and the beginning of Chapter 12. We learn about it, not from a much later conversation, nor from a letter or a journal entry, but from Peter's disordered
thoughts as he tries to remember what he wrote in a diary that's been chucked overboard. He forgets things, he remembers them in wrong order, the whole account is an
odd, piecemeal jumble, yet still somehow the essence and impact of events comes through. Marvelous.
I might've said POB really outdid himself here, but of course this example predates all the others we are so familiar with.
Also, it is sometimes suggested in the gunroom that the later books skirt over storms and battles because the author may have grown weary of describing these things over
and again. This episode in GO shows that O'Brian loved this little trick from the very beginning.
Matt Cranor
Eeek, something else I'll have to be careful around: wound care products,
since I'm very chemically sensitive to sulfites, sulfur, sulfur dioxide. I
was going to guess that brown paper may have had lots of SO 2 (sulfur
dioxide) in it and sulfur is a known wound healer. Sulfur of course is used
in paper production, hence the awful smell of pulp mills.
Vinegar, as a fermented product, also gives off SO 2 fumes, which Linnea
found out the hard way. Deciding that commercial vinegar must be full of
pesticides which caused my terrible headaches, I tried to make my own
vinegar from a folk recipe, putting organic peaches, etc. into a jar and
covered them for several days. I uncovered the jar, and oops, a cloud of
fumes came out!
~~ Linnea
Linnea -
Sulfer is used in *some* paper production processes. There are other
processes used, depending on what kind of paper you want. Some are
mechanical, some are chemical.
I worked for a year in a paper plant that smelled quite interesting (quite
a nice smell, even) and was one of the cleaner, more "environmentally
friendly" mills around. Not that it was all that environmentally
friendly, though, mind you. Just better than others.
Susan (who still has her steel-toed mill boots and her logger jeans)
Gary wrote about "...the rural Scots settlers of the north ( Ulster) ."
..."They too left in their droves; but not caring for much of Catholic
Europe or South America, and the Dissenters amongst them not now finding Protestant
England or Scotland any more congenial, set off for North America, settling
particularly in the Southern colonies. It seems to me - subject to correction
- that many USA natives are not fully aware that the first wave of Irish settlement
here was of Ulster dissenter, religious brothers and sisters of the Pilgrim
Father, and evary bit as grim-faced, hard-working and determined."
Right, Gary!
And not all of them settled in Appalachia. Quite a few settled in New
Hampshire in the 18th century; hence the towns of Derry, Londonderry and
Dublin, NH, the latter the headquarters of Yankee Magazine.
Andrew Jackson was a first generation Scots-Irish American.
Patrick Henry was another.
Richard Nixon's Quaker ancestors were also in Ireland before they came to
America.
The only Irish Catholic signer of the Declaration, was, as far as I remember,
Charles Carroll of Carrollton, in Maryland.
Those Scots who came from Ireland had only been there for a few
generations, coming over from Scotland after the Plantation of Ulster,
initiated by James I, and perhaps in the calamitous Cromwellian times.
At first, the Penal Laws were almost as onerous towards the Ulster Scots
Presbyterians, since they were dissenters from the Church of Ireland. (
Anglican )
As the century went on, though, things got better for the poor Ulster
Presbyterians, but not for the Catholics. For example, if a Catholic tenant
outside of Ulster made improvements to his property, his rent went up.
Latterly, this was not true among the dissenting tenants in Ulster.
I always thought that H.L. Mencken gave the poor Protestant Scots-Irish of
Appalachia a bum rap!
That otherwise admirable man showed, in my opinion, a bigoted side of his
character when he wrote about them.
( The Hatfields and the McCoys?)
Jean A.
In a message dated 7/7/01 3:26:42 PM, Sherkin@AOL.COM writes:
The only Irish Catholic signer of the Declaration, was, as far as I
remember,
Charles Carroll of Carrollton, in Maryland.
Indeed yes. And the richest man in America at the time. And the longest-lived
of the signers.
Charlezzzz
I thought George Washington was the richest man in America?
Or did he reach that status later?
I dunno. From what I remember out of that huge four-volume bio of him I read
half a century ago, he may have been the richest if you count his huge debts
as assets. Like most planters, he borrowed and borrowed to acquire more and
more land.
I once knew a man--he wanted me to go to work for his company--who told me he
was so far in debt to his bank that his business was perfectly safe: they wd
never let him go under. And they didn't. It was the district attorney that
got him.
Charlezzzz
According to Associated Press he made 11,000 gallons of whiskey in one
year. Now there's rich....
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010703/us/washington_s_whiskey_1.html
Lawrence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Henry Fielding (POB connection - either he or his brother are
mentioned i the canon) once said to a friend who complained that
he was, lamentably, 500 pounds in debt, "Why, my dear fellow,
how happy I should be if only I could get 500 pounds further in
debt than I am now."
AGB
In a message dated 7/7/01 2:26:34 PM Central Daylight Time, Sherkin@AOL.COM
writes:
many USA natives are not fully aware that the first wave of
Irish settlement here was of Ulster dissenters
There is an amusing book, Carolina Backcountry on the Eve of the Revolution
-- it's from the diaries of the Rev. Charles Woodmason, who undertook to do
some "circuit riding" into the interior of the state of SC in the 1700s, when
most of the Episcopal (then Church of England) clergy were sitting safely in
comfortable houses in coastal cities like Charleston and serving handsome
churches like St. Michael's and St. Philip's.
The Rev. Charles was much pestered by the anti-Establishment habits of these
grim Scotch-Irish, who would tear down the posters w/which he endeavored to
let people know that he was in their area to preach, marry, baptize etc., and
otherwise put in his way any obstacles that they could. He commented that
they were so against "set prayers" that they even disapproved of people
saying the "Our Father" (or Lord's Prayer). And he was pretty scathing as to
their cultural habits, cleanliness, and everything else about them!
Later on the South had its share of Irish Catholics, however (setting aside
the fictional Gerald O'Hara). Some did very well. In my own home town, the
exquisite O'Donnell House, with its traceried glass windows and intricate
parquet floors, became first the Sisters' Convent, then a funeral home, and
now serves as the office of the local Senior Services. And the hospital,
Tuomey Hospital, now a regional center -- and the place where I was born --
is named for the wealthy Irishman who left money to found a hospital. His
portrait and his wife's still hang in the entrance lobby. They were
childless, if I recall, and the hospital got the lot.
As for Mencken's prejudices, I remember, Jean, that my mother and dad, who
had spent some of their time in North Georgia amongst the Appalachian people,
would say "They are not dumb. Uneducated, yes, but they are not dumb. And
they are very, very, fiercely independent." Later my mother got hold of,
and loved, the FOXFIRE books which detail the indigenous culture of the poor
Appalachian whites.
A sad, brutish grobian, [IM, p45]
Mary S
In a message dated 7/4/2001 8:13:31 AM Central Daylight Time,
susanwenger@yahoo.com writes:
I remember posting to this list during a
discussion of whether O'Brian held prejudices that
nowhere in the Aubrey-Maturin series could I predict what
a character would say or do based entirely on his ethnic
background.
Which is generally true of the world as a whole, though few people will admit
it. On one hand there is a grain of truth to stereotypes about each of us.
On the other hand it is our tangents that take us outside that prototype and
give us depth as real people not cardboard cut-outs.
Sarah, willing to admit that the world might be an easier place if one *were*
one dimensional.
On Sun, 8 Jul 2001, Thistle Farm wrote:
Sarah, willing to admit that the world might be an easier place if one
*were* one dimensional.
And the elegant and slender figure of the world it would be, too. Very,
very sharp and pointy at the ends, though.
Chris Moseley
Thistle Farm On the other hand it is our tangents that take us outside that prototype
and give us depth as real people not cardboard cut-outs.
Indeed, but it is not that common in fiction, unfortunately.
. . . as Jack would say.
When Patrick O'Brian found a locution he especially
liked, he tended to use it again. Here's one:
From "The Golden Ocean," Chapter 15, page 284:
"Fie, Sean, for shame," said Peter, nipping otu of the
cart. "You audacious reptile."
From "Blue at the Mizzen" (42 years later), Chapter 9,
page 241:
"And look, look, Stephen," cried Jack, "the audacious
reptile has flashed out a skyscraper - do you see?"
Well, it IS a finely-turned phrase, sure.
- Susan
What are we to make of the curious incident of the discussion between the Chinese
sage and his doomed grandson about the curious neutral monsters of the third
class, the hairy ape of the farther western deserted regions and the its companion
the Smooth Southern Monster which continuously chanted "Palanquin ho, palanquin
hee"?
Inserted for amusement of those who are for or against the Chinese?
Mocking of the old and wise? Is it in anyway an accurate reflection of
how Anson or other European sailors of the time were viewed by authority
of just POB inventing something?
--
Adam Quinan
'Grab a chance and you won't be sorry for a might-have-been'
It is probably fairly accurate in terms of what a grandfather would tell
a grandson about hairy uncivilised monsters.
And I just loved Keppell's reaction to Anson hailing a pilot "Pilot
ho!".
And then PO'B took the joke a stage further. This is another example of
him setting something up far in advance, for almost as soon as we meet
Keppell we are introduced to this curious habit, and led up to the
punchline step by step. "Sail ho!" cries the lookout. "Sail hee!"
responds Keppell.
The doomed grandson struck rather an odd chord with me. We don't often
get to see into the future with PO'B, and this particular example was a
little unsettling. Perhaps intentionally, so as to give the reader a
sort of alien flavour.
One of my favorite passages in "The Golden Ocean." It's
definitely a stand-alone - it adds nothing to the story,
connects to nothing. The style is different from what
precedes and follows it. I think it's a set-piece he
wrote at a different time and tossed it into this tale
because it was there.
- Susan
I suspect that POB made up something that fit the
prejudices that still went unchallenged in the fifties.
However, on second reading, I decided that the sage did
know something of the life of a seaman RN. He tells his
grandson that the monsters are fed a "farinaceous brick".
"Farinaceous brick"? It sounds unappetizing. Let me
suggest it is the best the sage can do to translate the
unappetizing nature of a RN Purser's Sea Biscuit into
terms the grandson can understand.
My trans
In a message dated 7/8/01 8:04:36 PM, adam.quinan@HOME.COM writes:
Inserted for amusement of those who are for or against the Chinese?
Mocking of the old and wise?
Merely a joke, I think. An entertaining joke. Wch shd not be scrutinized for
political correctness. And--do you know?--nowhere else in the canon or in the
short stories is there anything similar, where two people who otherwise don't
appear in the work are seen as an onlookers' chorus, until we get to the two
elderly lieutenants discussing Jack's arrival at the start of the Hundred
Days. Shivery, the difference between those two scenes.
Charlezzzz, ho, Charlezzzz, hee
The conversation between the lieutenants that Charlezzzz points to seems to
have two uses: 1, bring the readers up to date, and 2, to offer the most
outrageous red-herring in the Canon: the implication that Stephen had died.
John
In chapter 1 Peter finds his way to the race-course
"..... and he was in the tight-packed jostling crowd that lined the green
race-course. They were all waiting on the edge and staring away to the
right, ...."
If we assume that the crowd at Derrynacaol is on the outside edge of the
course, then the horses must be running right handed, or clockwise, round
the track. I wondered about this, because I had been under the impression
that Irish race-courses are usually left handed. Leopardstown, Tipperary and
Navan certainly are, I'm not sure about Curragh. Does anyone have any more
certain information on this?
Here in the Great South Land we have two bob each way, Qld. & N.S.W.
generally run right handed, while Vic., S.A. & W.A. take the opposite course
(must be something to do with what football code you play)
Mal
Derelict Goldminer
Wasn't there another instance in Mauritius Command where two seamen are
keeping lookout and see Bonden and Stephen hotfooting (hotrowing?) it back
to tell Jack about the French doing some nefarious thing or other?
I seem to remember it being similar in style to the lieutenants discussion
in Hundred Days.
Nathan, who could be wrong about this - he often is
The doomed grandson struck rather an odd chord with me.
My TGO being inaccessible at the moment I have a question I can't check
for myself:
Why do you refer to the grandson as being doomed? I can't remember what
happens to him.
Thanks,
Very true. Didn't POB reuse the phrase "the mast was festooned with
midshipmen" other than in The Golden Ocean? It seemed familiar!
Ginger
In O'Brian's earliest short stories (the Ross-Sullivan
stories published in the 1930's, which formed the basis
for "The Road to Samarkand," his use of stereotypes was
very heavy-handed. His Chinese characters were far more
poorly drawn than those in this humorous interlude. I
wonder if he drew these in just to show his improvement!
- Susan
Why do you refer to the grandson as being doomed? I can't
remember what happens to him.
TGO p257
On the bank of the Pearl River, with its back to the teeming city of
Canton, a Chinese sage contemplated the innumerable sampans and junks.
By his side his grandson, a sharp child of six winters, tended a caged
cricket and gambolled in the mud - a child destined, it may be added,
for a public death by boiling just forty years on.
'Grandpapa,' said the fledgling gallows-bird...
Thanks for reminding us of the quote Peter:
TGO p257
On the bank of the Pearl River, with its back to the teeming city of Canton,
a Chinese sage contemplated the innumerable sampans and junks. By his side his
grandson, a sharp child of six winters, tended a caged cricket and gambolled
in the mud - a child destined, it may be added, for a public death by boiling
just forty years on.
Forty years on - 1783 or thereabouts. I wonder if this is a reference to a
particular event in Chinese history? Does anyone know more about the subject
than I do (which it wouldn't be hard...)?
Martin Watts
In chapter 1 Peter was uncertain of the way to the race-course,
"he joined in the wake of a party of butchers, who were marching down the
middle of the street, clashing their marrow-bones and cleavers and from time
to time uttering a concerted shriek."
What exactly was going on here? Were marrow-bones and cleavers part of the
regulation walking out uniforms for butchers at the time? Had one of their
number been done down by a bookie? Or, is this just one more "Chinese
grandfather" scene?
Mal
Derelict Goldminer
"Fledgling gallows-bird"? Sound to me like POBs typical dislike of children rather than a literal predictio of his fate. I do like POBs attitude toward children
(excepting Bridget and George, where he comes perilously close to sentimentality).
Gerry Strey
While we are on this passage (p. 257): I have two copies
of TGO: hardback and paperback, and the word
"meretricious" was mis-spelled in both. Does anybody
have a copy with this word spelled correctly?
Not having read TGO, I can't comment on the speccling of "meretricious," and must acknowledge that I shouldn't have commented on the fate of the young gallows-bird. I still like POBs attitude toward children, though.
Gerry Strey
Speaking of phrases, does any phrase repeat through the canon more
frequently than (or even with anything like the frequencey of) "Lose not a
minute" and its variants?
-Jerry
Susan--
I don't have a first edition of TGO, but I do have a copy
of the 1972 paperback edition (published by
Peacock Books, a division of Penguin, and printed
in Great Britain). On page 243, the palanquins are
described as "metricious" rather than "meretricious."
It would be interesting to see if the error occurs on
the original and stayed with the text regardless of the
publisher.
Jessie Matthews
In a message dated 7/10/01 2:04:28 AM Central Daylight Time,
Martin.Watts@MARCONI.COM writes:
Forty years on - 1783 or thereabouts. I wonder if this is a reference to
a
particular event in Chinese history?
It sounds like he's just taking a typically POBian ghoulish relish in
mentioning one of the arcane and upsetting modes of execution and torture
among the Chinese - you will hear more of this (lots more than I like) in
FLASHMAN if you read him - whichever's the one where Flashy goes to China.
"On the bank of the Pearl River, with its back to the teeming city of
Canton, a Chinese sage contemplated the innumerable sampans and junks."
Does it really say "its"? or "his"? The bank might turn its back to the
city, I suppose, but the river can surely only turn its side to the city...
gluppit the prawling strangles, there, [FoW8]
Mary S
Which I have just been a reading of it, ain't I? Read, read read,
fingers to the bone, moil and toil. Onward ho!
FitzGerald has just recovered from his sea-sickness and has gone aloft
with Peter, coming up through the lubber's hole. Peter has been
explaining the diagrams in his seamanship manual and attempting to show
him the ropes.
It seems to me that in these naval books of PO'B, there is almost always
some lubber who must have things explained to him. In this book it is
FitzGerald and Sean to some degree, in the next it is Tobias, and
afterwards Stephen (remember Stephen) takes the post.
In TUS there is a jolly good explanation of a lee-shore, for example.
So in both of these pre-cursor books we have the strengthening
beginnings of the pair-bond of the seaman and the lubber which dominates
the Aubreyad. Here in TGO it is quite diffuse - Peter is the seaman, but
he runs out of lubbers and his affections on board are quite diffuse. In
TUS, we get Jack and Toby, and the relationship is more than halfway
towards the golden friendship of the following books. For the flow of
knowledge goes both ways: seamanship from Jack to Toby, natural history
and medicine the other way..
Towards the end of the book Peter is writing to his father.
He writes: "These will be made Public (or what Part of 'em is fit for the
Public Gaze) in the Gazette, and to them I will leave the Task of recounting
our Voyage: for otherwise, upon my Word, I shou'd be hard put to begin.
William cou'd encompass it, I am sure, or Homer or Virgil;" (p. 254)
It's interesting that Peter ranks his brother William with Homer and Virgil,
but I'll comment more on that in another post; what I want to note here is
the Homer reference. (The cover blurb on my Norton pb sounds a similar
theme: "O'Brian is in a direct line of descent from Homer," says The Boston
Sunday Globe.)
And, sure enough, The Golden Ocean has similarities to Homer's Odyssey: a
man (Peter, Ulysses) goes off on an ocean voyage, faces many dangers along
the way, and returns finally to his home. At the end, Peter's old horse
Placidus comes up to greet him (p. 285), just as Ulysses's old dog had
greeted him. (There may be other parallels I'm missing.)
O'Brian may have been influenced by more than Homer: James Joyce also used
The Odyssey to structure his novel Ulysses. Among many other things, Joyce
wove the storylines of some traditional Irish songs into his plot structure
("The Croppie Boy", "Biddy Mulligan", probably others I'm not remembering at
the moment) in Ulysess (of course, he did this much more explicitly with
Finnegans Wake, based on the ballad "Finnegan's Wake"). O'Brian, I think,
does the same thing in Golden Ocean.
I spotted three Irish songs which were woven into the plot of Golden Ocean.
First, there's the colorful horse racing scene at the book's beginning,
which is much like "The Galway Races", with some of the words almost exactly
the same.
From the song: "There were multitudes assembled with their tickets at the
station"; from the book: "there were more people than he had ever seen in
the world quite filling the streets" (p. 25).
From the song:
"It's there you'll see confectioners, with sugar sticks and dainties,
There are "stalls of fairings and gingerbread" on p. 23, and a crubeen
(pig's foot, spelled craubeen by PO'B) is featured prominently, as Peter is
given one in compensation for his crushed hat (p. 23).
From the song:
"It's there you'll see the pipers and the fiddlers competing,
From the book: "it occurred to him that he might find Sean over where the
dancing was, and the pipes" (p. 24).
From the song:
"When the bell was rung for starting, all the horses seemed impatient,
From the book: "My uncle Liam was right and the great spotted horse flew --
it flew, never touching the ground" (p. 25).
From the song (chorus): "With me whack fol the due fol the diddly eye
dillay"; OK, that's not in the book, but I threw it in for fun.
Later in the book, Peter, Sean, and FitzGerald must cross Ireland by foot,
which parallels the plot of "The Rocky Road to Dublin", about a journey by
foot from Connaught to Dublin. In the song, the narrator has his purse
stolen in Dublin ("me bundle it was stole"), just as our heroes lose their
money on their journey.
Then "Rocky Road"'s narrator joins a ship's crew:
"Landed on the quay, just as the ship was sailing.
Again, this parallels the book's plot: Peter et al arrive as their ship is
sailing and must chase after it on a boat Sean has conveniently "borrowed"
for the occassion (pp. 42- 43).
"Rocky Road"'s narrator is cabined "down among the pigs", much as Sean is
chosen to keep the ship's pigs.
At the song's end, "Rocky Road"'s narrator fights with some of the English
crew after they begin abusing Ireland:
"Well, the boys of Liverpool, when we safely landed,
parallelling many of the fights aboard ship, particularly at the end of
Chapter 3, when Peter is called "Teague" once too often:
"'Take it easy, Teague,' said another.
"But Peter would not take it easy: he hesitated, trying to quell the wild
indignation; but he failed; it possessed him, and with a furious shriek he
hurled himself upon his country's oppressors." (p. 65)
Finally, and I think most cleverly, at the book's end, Sean meets Pegeen
Ban, who speaks to him in terms apparently taken straight from the song
"Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye".
In the song, Johnny returns from a war in very bad shape, and the narrator
laments: "Where are the eyes that looked so mild?" (for Johnny's lost his
eyes), and later she goes on the lament the loss of his arms and legs, and
at the end of each verse, she laments: "Johnny, I hardly knew ye."
Pegeen similarly laments Sean's wounds (Sean is the Irish form of John):
"Why, Sean dear, I hardly knew you. And Peter! Oh, what have they done to
your poor face, all banged with guns? And Sean honey, your ears, and have
you them lost? Oh, Sean, what a strange hat you have on. Oh, Sean, I
hardly knew you". (p. 283).
In conclusion, let me say: with me whack fol the due fol the diddly eye
dillay.
John Finneran
Surely this is the great gunroom (and list) of the world! Not knowing these
songs I would have never noticed them in the books.
Thanks for sharing this - you've certainly added to my enjoyment.
Nathan
I agree. And I am also embarrassed. I noticed the similarity between
Pegeen's greeting to Sean and the song and I thought it was a coincidence!
I have been banging myself over the head about this. Of course O'Brian
would not have done something like that by accident!
Mary, feeling dense
In a message dated 7/12/01 3:22:47 AM, John.Finneran@PILEOFSHIRTS.COM writes:
In conclusion, let me say: with me whack fol the due fol the diddly eye
dillay.
Indeed, John. Remarkable.
And that song, that happy song, "When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again,"...I
heard it sung (during the Vietnam days) as the "Johnny I Hardly Knew You,"
and vy truly touching and sad it was.
Charlezzzz
Perhaps the "William" is Shakespeare?
Gerry Strey (venturing once again to comment without having read the book)
Brilliant, John Finneran!
Like Mary, I'm saying "Why didn't I think of that?", particularly in regard
to "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye," and "Galway Races" as well!
I'll bet POB is grinning to himself, wherever he is, delighted that someone
has finally got it!
Jean A.
The beauty of John's post about the songs is complete;
there's nothing I can add on that, but I noticed
something else, triggered by this message about Pegeen's
greeting to Sean:
On the first page, when Peter the hero is going off to
see the world, it is Pegeen Ban who cries out "And let
you bring us the King of Spain's bright crown." In any
other novel, you know right away how this is going to
end. But POB is never predictable, and it is not the
main hero Peter who gets to marry the beautiful girl in
the end - it's Sean, (who begged to be remembered to
Pegeen Ban, Bridie Walsh, Fiona Colmon, Norah at
Ardnacoire, Maire Scanlan, Maggy, the ganger's three
Daughters and some more that Peter forgot). And the
story ends with Pegeen demanding that Sean, not Peter,
marry her. Surprise!
It's not really without a verb, but it is missing some part of the
"normal" sentence, it's in TWDS, Stephen and Eduardo are in the Andes,
and it's a description of the physical environment. Sorry I don't have
it here.
Isabelle Hayes
As an accompaniment to The Golden Ocean I've been reading
"The Log of the Centurion" by Leo Heaps - Macmillan, NY 1973.
It's a condensed version of Philip Saumerez' journal of
the circumnavigation, and although it is condensed it still
captures a lot of the flavor of the voyage. I haven't looked
around to see how available it is on the used book market,
but I would recommend it to any interested lissuns......
Dick Elliott
After the crew of the Gloucester transferred to the Centurian, the
midshipmen have to deal with a couple of bullying louts who are added to
their berth. The situation is described in chapter 12 and on pg 214, POB
makes the following comment: "They were good seamen, and courageous
(qualities which are certainly to be found with a taste for bullying,
whatever moral tales may say), but the attributes upon which they chiefly
valued themselves were those which made them most disagreeable as companions
and to the world in general".
There is another courageous bully to be found in The Mauritius Command
as well. I am not so sure I agree with Mr O'Brian about this. True, I have
been lucky to not have to deal with the sort of bullies who intend serious
physical harm, but I have met more than my share of the lesser kind of
bully. The sort to be found at the workplace or in the family, alas. You
have to find a civilised way to deal with this common sort of bully and I
eventually came to the conclusion that these bullies really are cowards and
they are not able to take what they dish out. They can be intimidated or
driven up the wall with very little effort once their victim stops giving in
to them.
What do others think about the notion of courageous bullies? And is
there a difference between bullies who are willing to do physical violence
and those who aren't? Something fundamental other than just the degree to
which they are willing to escalate the intimidation? I understand that
shipboard or military life creates an artificial sort of situation that
makes it difficult for lower ranking men to defend themselves, and this may
create a still different sort of bully who would not thrive in a more open
society. It is a complicated psychological problem I think, but at this
point I am not inclined to think of bullies as courageous in general.
Mary A
Permission to come aboard.
(after a long stint away catching up on my gainful labor).
As for bullies, courage before the enemy may not translate into courage in
dealing on a day to day basis with those with whom one must work or live. I
think being a bully necessarily means a lack of sense of security, i.e.
fear, in dealing with folks, but that does not necessarily mean a lack of
fear before the enemy or in other situations. Bligh (my having just read
Mutiny on the Bounty) obviously was insecure in dealing with his crew, but
showed great courage in crossing so much ocean in a small boat as he did.
Michael in Phila.
What has always interested me about the phenomenon of bullying is how the bullies choose their victims.
Gerry Strey
Bligh (my having just read
Mutiny on the Bounty) obviously was insecure in dealing with his crew, but
showed great courage in crossing so much ocean in a small boat as he did.
Well that is a good point for sure; I never had to work with bullies in a
truly dangerous situation where personal courage was required, hence my
opinion that they don't seem to have any. I wonder just how much bullying
of the men Mr Bligh accomplished once he was in that open boat where it
would have been really easy to dump him overboard (unless he was the only
one in the boat who could navigate and they didn't dare scrag him).
Mary
What has always interested me about the phenomenon of bullying is how the
bullies choose their victims.
I would think they would look for weakness of some sort or perhaps someone
who doesn't seem to have many friends to look to for support. Sometimes
they make a mistake and confuse civility for weakness.
Mary
Somewhere in the series POB has the young gentleman eat their
last sheep in something like 80 north when the plot has the ship
sailing in the south Atlantic. A joke, a tease, a mistake?
Gerry Strey
Madison, Wisconsin
Speaking of which, there's a major long./lat.typo in The Golden Ocean --
it's clearly a typo which wasn't caught by editors; I noticed it because it
occurs when Peter is writing in his journal about how their journey has
progressed, and one of three pairs of long/lat numbers in relation to two
others was way off, by more than 100º. I can't check the details, as the
copy of the book I was reading went back to the library. Did anybody else
notice this?
Marian
I didn't spot Marian's longitudes but there seem to be a number of odd
positions. I know they hadn't developed the chronometer but I doubt even
dead reckoning could make these sorts of mistakes ;-)
On page 178 we find Centurion in the position 10* 36' SOUTH 77* 41 NORTH
On page 205 We have the Centurion at 12* 50' N 32' West with no degrees
at all of westing.
Later there is the reference to the sighting of Formosa in 22 N 119* 17'
WEST on p. 247.
A page or so later Ransome claims that the bones which support our
earthly tower number four hundred and eighty fower. In fact there are
206 bones in the adult human, some fuse together during growth so an
infant has more.
Susan Wenger wrote:
Following "The Golden Ocean," "The Unknown Shore,"
another "boys' book,"
Susan, by "boy's book" did you mean that we are not yet into O'Brian's
mature work or that the intended audience is pre-adult?
Aari, thinking the latter might account for some things.
Both _The Golden Ocean_ and _The Unknown Shore_ were published as Young
Adult books (ages 12 up). However these books did lead to POB being
commissioned by Lippincott of Philadelphia about 1969 to write an adult
novel of the sea which was intended to attract the audience of the C. S
Forester Hornblower books. He failed, of course, since as most of us know,
he didn't achieve comparable success with this novels until 1990 and his
republication in the US by W. W. Norton. Clearly he intended Jack Aubrey
to be as much unlike Hornblower as he could make him and in the following
years one could almost see his nape rise when he was asked to compare his
books to the Hornblower series. Several times in interviews he mentioned
that his books eventually achieved success without his changing a word in
any of them.
For his books written in his "boyhood" one can read _Caesar_ or _Hussein_,
now available in paperback. This were published under the name Patrick Russ.
John
The Long/Lat typo I noticed was on p. 178. Even *I* can tell that 10
degrees 36 minutes South, 77 degrees 41 minutes North, is not what he
meant. Sort of a point in irrational space... Obviously, the N for North
is supposed to be W for West. Marian must have observed a different
typo.
Susan, by "boy's book" did you mean that we are not yet
into O'Brian's mature work or that the intended audience
is pre-adult?
In some books, the list of "other works by" O'Brian show
TGO and TUS as intended for younger readers. Naturally,
I couldn't find such a list tonight : }
Susan
Mebbe so, but does any Lissun feel that POB is reducing the level of his
writing? Not me.
Charlezzzz, always a younger reader if that's what it takes
I made a deal with my 13 year old. I said I would read the first three Harry
Potter books if she would read the TGO. Well I finished my part and finally
got her to begin on hers. It will be interesting to see her reaction. A win
win bet for me no matter how you look at it, as I really enjoyed Harry
Potter. She just got back from a 2 week "creative writers camp" at Duke and
I was a bit flabbergasted at the quality of her poetry and her short story.
The poetry teacher took the students to the art museum and had them write a
poem on what they saw in the paintings/sculptures. Very
interesting--attached a poloroid of the picture to the poem. I think I will
make her write a "book report" on TGO so that we can see what a fairly well
read 13 year old girl thinks of POB's book for "younger readers". She is not
exactly gobbling up TGO like she did Harry Potter so it we might be into TGO
before I post it. (if she will let me).
Tommy Armstrong
I think that neither TGO nor TUS is particularly a boy's book at least
for current young teenage boys. It is interesting to see that what used
to be considered children's fare, with age, seems less appropriate. I
don't know whether its the lack of modern references or the tougher
language style or just different tastes. My children are not
particularly enamoured of the Swallows and Amazon books. I never really
enjoyed some of my father's beloved childhood books, if I could remember
what they were I'd tell you!
Mebbe so, but does any Lissun feel that POB is reducing the
level of his writing? Not me.
Nor I. I think he would consider them as "juvenile" (in the intended
market) in that the protaganists were young people rather than the
comparitively ancient officers, captains and commodores, and that the
narrative was more action than cogitation, and let us remember that some
of his earlier works were very cerebral indeed. I cannot imagine any
teenager picking up Three Bear Witness and sticking with it unless it
was a set book at school.
But TGO and TUS are definitely adventure stories.
Now I cut my teeth on the sort of British adventure stories of the mid
Twentieth Century that must have influenced PO'B on what a boys' book
should be like. The Coral Island, Biggles, Boys' Own Yarns and so on. My
father used to buy up the books of his childhood and I, voracious
bookworm, devoured them as soon as ever they appeared at home. I also
read through my school libraries, which were full of more contemporary
works.
But TGO and TUS are quite unlike any of these yarns. They are far too
witty, far too clever in their language, far too deep. And they aren't
as "contrived" as your typical boys own formula story. Even the
"juvenile" science fiction stories I also devoured, by Asimov, Heinlein,
Wyndham and Clarke, were constructed along different lines. The two
British authors could be fairly philosophical, but their writing, their
use of language, their narrative structures were never as sparkling or
polished as Patrick O'Brian's.
So what model was PO'B using, I wonder? "Write a story for the over 12
reader", they said, and off he went. Where did he derive his model? What
passed through his head?
I think that he picked young viewpoints and used a genuine adventure
story, and that was about the only concession he made to the proposed
market. I'd like to say that he wasn't as dark in his writing, but
though TGO is certainly upbeat, parts of TUS are as bleak and depressing
as anything I've ever read.
Did POB make another concession to the juvenile market
by leaving out profanity? I can't recall any. Mind you
the early Aubrey-Maturin novels don't have any either,
so maybe that is just a sign of the times he wrote them in.
As to TUS being more bleak than TGO. I read TUS first.
I didn't really notice the death toll in TGO the first
read through. Oh yeah, the pensioners died, and there
were some cases of scurvy. Well, you expect some deaths
in a sea story.
It was only on the second read through that I realized
that well over 60% of Anson's seamen perished during
the voyage. It's really an appalling death toll.
Indeed. In TGO, the horrors are glossed over. In TUS, the reader is part
of it. You are there, your teeth falling out, starving, exhausting your
last reserves of strength in rowing up a river in freezing rain.
That's not a boys own yarn.
After they arrive back in England PP bails his friend Elliot's
father out of debtor's prison. And the Commodore has a parsonage
vacant on his estate.
Now I recall a reference to Anson from Desolation Island.
Anson won an incredible fortune in prize money. As had Jack
Aubrey. Aubrey is throwing his money away foolishly, on
race horses, and Kimber, the "projector".
As I recall, someone (Stephen?) says, "Anson may have gone
around the world, but he wasn't able to enter the world".
From this I got the impression that Anson had not been wealthy
prior to this great voyage. In fact, somewhere I had gotten
the impression that he may have been a "mustang" like Cook.
But, in that case, he wouldn't have had parsonages on his
estate, would he?
Well, this is the estate:
http://www.staffordshire.gov.uk/shugboro/shugpark.htm
"Once a small country manor, it was given a grander setting and
appearance through the vision of Thomas Anson, assisted by
the acquired wealth of his brother, Admiral George Anson."
Does this imply that the Admiral was a younger brother?
Martin Watts Over 1300 men died from disease, mainly scurvy. 4 died from enemy action.
(Figures from Kemp's "Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea".)
Anson was made a baron after his 1747 victory of Cape Finisterre, which
would confirm that he was a younger son. He then married the daughter of the
Lord Chancellor and, according to Kemp "moved freely in the corridors of power".
There is a biography by our old acquaintance Sir John Barrow.
Martin Watts
Now here's something weird: I always loved my dad's favorite childhood
books, especially his Mallory's King Arthur, the Robin Hood stories, fairy
tales, Black Beauty, the Red Pony, and those books about the porcupines.
(I think the title was Too Much Salt and Pepper.) But as adults we have
totally different reading taste.
I thought he would love POB but he's really struggling with it. First he
read The Mauritius Command, then he got my favorite, HMS Surprise, on CD
from the library. He keeps being annoyed that the battles are cut short,
and that he can't envision the ships.
Is that a guy thing? I see the ships peripherally in my minds' eye, and
that's good enough for me because I'm more interested in the characters'
internal realities.
Anyway I think anyone who likes Harry Potter is a natural candidate for
POB. They have in common: imagined surroundings, ensemble characters that
grow from book to book, descriptions of familiar human behavior in
unfamiliar setting. But POB's language is richer, and there's the whole
history draw. (I mean, these things really happened!) One just has to have
the ability to sit still--perhaps for some an adult thing...
Ruth A.
I think I will
make her write a "book report" on TGO so that we can see what a fairly well
read 13 year old girl thinks of POB's book for "younger readers". She is not>exactly gobbling up TGO like she did Harry Potter so it we might be into TGO
before I post it. (if she will let me).
Does she -enjoy- writing book reports? I'm asking because nothing
sucked the joy out of a book faster for me at that age...
Of course, you know her much better than I do!!! ;-)
--
"You mightn't happen to have a piece of cheese about you, now? No?
Well, many's the long night I've dreamed of cheese -- toasted, mostly
-- and woke up again and here I were."
Ben Gunn
oops
I should have written "I will encourage her write a 'book report' on TGO."
She didn't seem to mind them last year, but the ones she had to write were
for the middle school monthly newspaper, and she got her worked "published".
And they were on books of her choice, not the teachers or her daddy. We'll
see.
Tommy Armstrong
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."
Peter's points do resonate when you pair:
TGO with the A-M series.
Two different models, indeed.
Perhaps POB's childhood, of which we know more nowadays, helped fashion a
fantasy of going to sea and returning with a fortune beyond belief. And
POB recoganized it as a young adult's fantasy.
John
Martin Watts wrote:
Anson was made a baron after his 1747 victory of Cape
Finisterre, which would confirm that he was a younger son.
He then married the daughter of the Lord Chancellor and,
according to Kemp "moved freely in the corridors of power".
There is a biography by our old acquaintance Sir John Barrow.
Ah. Thanks for this, and for the link to the family estate.
Since Anson was a peer, and absurdly rich, why didn't he
start an estate of his own, as Arthur Wellesley did? Maybe
he turned out to be too old or infertile to start a family
and have an heir?
I wonder how long it took for his family to spend that fortune? That quote
from the pages of the shugborough estate http://www.staffordshire.gov.uk/shugboro/mansion.htm
went on to say:
> Once a small country manor, it was given a grander
> setting and appearance through the vision of Thomas
> Anson, assisted by the acquired wealth of his brother,
> Admiral George Anson. In its heyday in the middle of
> the 18th century, it played host to scores of
> distinguished artists, designers, men of letters and
> of culture leaving a rich legacy for generations to
> admire.
Heyday mid 18th century? It sounds like a big chunk of
the fortune was spent then shortly after the Anson family
acquired it. Well, why not? Many estates back then were
rich in land, so why not plow the money back into improving
the property, so long as none of your distinguished
designers is named "Kimber"?
More about the Ansons:
The original house at Shugborough was built in 1693. Thomas Anson was born
in 1695 and George, the Admiral, two years later in 1697. There were major
extensions and improvements between 1745 and 1748. I think we can all guess
where the money came from!
See: http://www.burrows.co.uk/staffordshire/08mus01b.htm
More chronology on this page: http://smithpp0.tripod.com/psp/id16.html
The title Earl of Lichfield was created in 1831, well after our generation
of Ansons. The 5th Earl is better known as Patrick Lichfield, photographer and
2nd cousin to the Queen.
There were also Anson connections in Norfolk, I am trying to find out more.
The estate there was sold by Viscount Anson, later the First Earl of Lichfield,
in 1828. Presumably this was to settle the debts that led to him also selling
the contents of Shugborough.
Martin Watts
John Berg wrote:
Perhaps POB's childhood, of which we know more nowadays, helped fashion a
fantasy of going to sea and returning with a fortune beyond belief.
There I do see something that might be gauged to appeal to Young Adults.
Both books start with running away to sea after fortune. But otherwise, how
would one choose this deeply sad, flawed, extremely long and death-filled
voyage as a setting for an "adventure" story? If it weren't for the endless
comic relief of Sean, and the levity of Ransome & Keppel (a fabulous
odd-couple) how could we endure the death of Elliot and the endless dropping
over the side of scurvy-depleted bodies? And Peter hardly sees exotic parts
of the world or exciting battles. Bleak uninhabited islands mostly, and
endless waiting.
I'm trying to get behind the thinking that chooses Anson's voyage as a
setting for *two* young adult novels. Certainly it's a great excuse to
immerse one's self in the archives and chew on the history. (And from what I
can tell by reading Glyn Williams "The Prize of All the Oceans" [highly
recommended in this context, thanks to Gregory Edwards for bringing this to
our/my attention before the group read] POB is giving his young reader a
marvelously accurate and lively history lesson.)
Can someone put these books in the overal context of POB's fiction?
-- Were these the first Navy novels? (I don't know what Testimonies or the
Catalan book are about.)
-- Which were his first books clearly written for adults?
It's so wild that in TGO & TUS we have this fully-formed historical world
and language that we so readily recognize when it appears again ELEVEN years
later. Where does his knowledge of historical naval minutiae come from? Was
this a pre-existing hobby/obsession? Have we seen it before? Does it lie
dormant for a decade until some publisher looks him up?
Aari, thinking perhaps she should read Dean King's bio instead of peppering
you with questions.
TFAJr wrote:
She didn't seem to mind them last year, but the ones she had to write were
for the middle school monthly newspaper, and she got her worked "published".
Well, Tommy's daughter's report would certainly be e-published and find an
eager audience here. I know I'm excited about the prospect of her weighing
in.
Aari
P.S. You can tell her I did my part and read all four Harry Potters.
-- Were these the first Navy novels? (I don't know what
Testimonies or the Catalan book are about.)
Resisting the urge to say that Testimonies (first published as Three
Bear Witness) was another animal story, yes, this is his first book of
naval fiction. Susan will correct me I'm sure, but there may have been
something in the short story line earlier.
-- Which were his first books clearly written for adults?
TBW, I think. In a way you could say that PO'B was returning to the
youth market, but TGO is NOTHING like his earlier books Caesar and
Hussein.
It's so wild that in TGO & TUS we have this fully-formed
historical world and language that we so readily recognize
when it appears again ELEVEN years later. Where does his
knowledge of historical naval minutiae come from? Was this a
pre-existing hobby/obsession? Have we seen it before? Does it
lie dormant for a decade until some publisher looks him up?
Aari, thinking perhaps she should read Dean King's bio
instead of peppering you with questions.
You could, but unfortunately that book isn't overly concerned with his
literary work.
In a message dated 7/24/01 6:08:10 PM, peter.mackay@BIGPOND.COM writes:
You could, but unfortunately that book isn't overly concerned with his
literary work.
Unfortunately indeed. It's not concerned--right!--with his writing. It's
peeking through keyhole stuff. But, despite that, it's helpful in understand
where some of his literary concepts come from.
Charlezzzz
In a message dated 7/24/01 9:13:47 PM, susanwenger@YAHOO.COM writes:
Yes, indeed. To see how this great friendship began, how
these great characters became what they are, read "The
Unknown Shore," which we will begin discussing on August
1.
True. In TUS we find the ur-Jack and the ur-Stephen, clearly drafted. And, of
course, in The Golden Ocean we find the ur-Padeen in Sean, don't we, though
the more thoroughly developed Padeen is less of a clown.
Charlezzzz
Charlezzzz wrote:
In TUS we find the ur-Jack and the ur-Stephen, clearly drafted. And, of
course, in The Golden Ocean we find the ur-Padeen in Sean, don't we,
though
the more thoroughly developed Padeen is less of a clown.
Interesting idea. To me, Sean and Padeen are quite different. I imagine
their physical appearance to be much different--Sean spry, nimble, a
runner; Padeen more of a big hulking protector. They were different as
sailors--Sean a natural, gifted seaman, and I don't recall this at all
about Padeen. I also think of Sean as a very forward person, a clown as
Charlezzzz says, and Padeen as reserved and shy except among his own folk.
I haven't looked up chapter & verse.
I do see as a similarity the
loyalty, devotion, and utter reliability.
It's a good thing we have a month* to discuss these books, since I'm way
behind in things I wanted to mention:
(*Actually, we have more, since there's a starting date to each book in the
group read, but no ending date)
One of the things I wanted to mention was PO'B's characters: I think we see
precursors to Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin in Peter and FitzGerald
respectively.
Jack Byron and Toby Barrow from The Unknown Shore are even clearer
precursors; and while I think Peter and Jack Byron are similar, FitzGerald
and Toby are VERY different, prefiguring very different aspects of Stephen's
character; but perhaps we can look more closely at a comparison between
FitzGerald and Toby when we get to our discussion of The Unknown Shore.
Returning to The Golden Ocean, it's interesting to see how PO'B mixes up his
assignments of some of Jack (Aubrey) and Stephen's secondary
characteristics: Peter (the pre-Jack character) is Irish (a Stephen
characteristic); Jack's sense of humor is given to a third character
(Ransome); Peter (like Stephen) is skilled at hunting hogs; and Peter has
Stephen's interest in naturalism.
Now, the interest in naturalism is very interesting because of the real-life
person it came from:
When PO'B was interviewed by the BBC a few years ago, he said that Jack
Aubrey was based on his (PO'B's) much admired older brother Michael, who was
greatly interested in naturalism and used to send PO'B natural specimens
(snake skins and the like, if I remember correctly); what PO'B didn't
mention, but what I think we can safely infer, is that Stephen's interest in
naturalism (not shared by Jack) is also based on Michael's.
In Golden Ocean, Peter, who is the Michael character, unites Jack's basic
personality and hero-like characteristics with Stephen's naturalistic
interests. Like Michael, Peter sends physical specimens to his younger
brother William Palafox: all of which makes William Palafox, a very marginal
character in the story, perhaps the novel's most interesting character,
because he represents none other than young Patrick O'Brian himself!
So let's look at William:
When Peter (Michael) comes safely home (as the real Michael, killed in
action in World War II, never did), William is one of the children
specifically named who comes running up to greet him (p. 285); Peter will
use some of his new riches to "send William to the longed-for Trinity
College" (p. 283); and here's a passage I've quoted before (Peter is writing
to his father):
He writes: "These will be made Public (or what Part of 'em is fit for the
Public Gaze) in the Gazette, and to them I will leave the Task of recounting
our Voyage: for otherwise, upon my Word, I shou'd be hard put to begin.
William cou'd encompass it, I am sure, or Homer or Virgil;" (p. 254)
So, you see, the writer being compared to Homer and Virgil is William
(Patrick).
The name William is interesting, in that it's a stereotypically British name
(especially in Northern Ireland, from William of Orange; the more Iricized
form is Liam), just as Patrick is a stereotypical Irish name. (Some of you
may know the humorous song "The Orange and the Green", where the narrator's
Orange (Protestant, British) father calls him William and his Green
(Catholic, Irish) mother calls him Pat, though his real name is neither of
the two.)
Now the real-life Patrick in this novel starts out as a fairly non-descript
English boy (William), but in the fantasy resolution, he is to become a
great writer (on a par with Homer and Virgil), and we can assume he is to
enter, at least through his writing, into Peter's world of adventure and
Irishness (i.e., William is to become Patrick).
I'll end with a somewhat related quotation on another English writer (also
named William), who also becomes an Irish writer, sort of.
In an article in the September, 1940 issue of The American Mercury, (Irish)
author T.F. Healy concludes to his own (if not to his more skeptical
readers') satisfaction that "Shakespeare Was An Irishman" (the title of the
article). (The article itself is very interesting and entertaining. I've
typed it up and shall put it up on the web some day). Here's the article's
conclusion, much of which can apply to PO'B:
"Reading Shakespeare as an Irishman makes him far more interesting and
revealing. His is the Irish Celtic outlook on the world. He has the
unclassical, occult sense of things, a sense that made its way out of Éire
into France and Germany, over a Europe that had long been beholden to the
classical Greek influence. It was this sense that gave the Continent the
miracle of the Celtic which in turn produced the miracle of Gothic culture
and brought it to flower.
"Too, there is Shakespeare's belief (like Hamlet's) in ghosts and his
delightful mixing-up of the natural and supernatural worlds.
He seems to have the Irish conviction of the nearness of another world.
There is his exuberance, his sense of reverie and
passion, of ecstasy and despair. Above all there is his mystical worship of
nature, which apart from the Irish writers of English
literature we find but little among English authors, perhaps with the unique
exception of Wordsworth. And there is his abundant, resonant, beautiful,
living speech. The temperament behind the art that moves us seems to be an
Irish temperament, with the Celtic empathy that fills his works with the
light that never was on land or sea. Shakespeare brings to mind Matthew
Arnold's query asking how much of the Celt one must imagine in the ideal man
of genius.
"Thus Shakespeare now the Irish claim along with Congreve, Farquhar,
Sheridan, Goldsmith, Wilde, Ervine, Shaw, the
outstanding 'English' dramatists who were Irishmen all. Come in, Will
Shakespeare! There's a welcome before you. And was it an Englishman they
were trying to make of you and yourself with a brogue like that, God bless
it? Will you have a drop of the
whiskey in your tea? Let you draw up a chair now. Sure, we'll sit by the
fire and tell sad stories of the death of kings."
John Finneran
And, in this rather elaborate name-association context, worth
remarking that of course St Patrick wasn't actually
Irish................
AGB
So what nationality was Saint Patrick? Polish?
=====
James McPherson St Patrick is believed to be from somwehere near Dumbarton in Scotland who
was captured by the Irish raiders and enslaved. He escaped and became a priest.
Patrick is derived from the Latin name Patricius from noble, patrician or upper-class.
This was the name he took after he became a priest. He then returned to convert
the Irish. John Finneran
In Golden Ocean, Peter, who is the Michael character,
unites Jack's basic
personality and hero-like characteristics with
Stephen's naturalistic
interests. Like Michael, Peter sends physical
specimens to his younger
brother William Palafox: all of which makes William
Palafox, a very marginal
character in the story, perhaps the novel's most
interesting character,
because he represents none other than young Patrick
O'Brian himself!
I'm still rather in awe of this insight, and I'm
wondering: in the Aubreyad, is there any evidence that
Phillip Aubrey, Jack's younger half-brother who was too
young to go to war, plays the same semi-autobiographical
function as William in "The Golden Ocean?"
The scenes between shy hero-worshipping Philip and Jack in chapter 8 of
LOM have the ring of the possible relationship between young Patrick and
older brother Michael. In particular, the gift of the pistol ball which
Stephen extracted from Jack's back.
John suggested that Michael had a love for natural science which he shared
with Patrick. I don't see any particular evidence for that. The snakeskin
he sent Patrick was killed while cutting sugar cane in Australia, and was
more like a trophy, intended to thrill his younger brother. According to
Dean King, Michael also engaged in poaching, illegally trapping platypus
for profit, not for any interest in science.
Don Seltzer
As I understand it, POB had his own strong interest in natural history, particularly
ornithology, possibly also entomology and other topics. While this may perhaps
have been kindled by gifts from his brother in Australia, I would suggest that
both Stephen and Tobias's knowledge and interest in the subject are coming from
within himself, not from a brother who had been absent for a long time and was
now dead.
--
'Grab a chance and you won't be sorry for a might-have-been'
I am a little behind in the group read, having only finished rereading it
this weekend. I continue to be disappointed with the ending of
TGO. Fourteen chapters to get us from rural Ireland to the capture and
half way around the world and just one to get us back. Was this
intentional or was the book becoming too long?
There was plenty of potential material to be exploited - half a world's
worth. Fear of Spanish recapture; delights of Batavia, India, and Africa;
interactions with dutchmen taken on; wending through the French Fleet;
amusements of sailors in London; encounters with thieves and speculators
once paid off. (Perhaps these are fodder for the next flowing sheets
contest.)
I suppose the answer hinges on what the book was about - capturing the
treasure, circumnavigating, growth of the characters, naval life in the
mid-18th century or other. I liked seeing how the characters
developed. The turnabout Peter had in his berth with his Prowlburke, etc.
hor, hor. Sean's character is doggedly unchanged despite all that has
occurred. Ransome's development from fear of social interaction to cut up,
even Anson becoming more mortal.
Mike
Another theme in The Golden Ocean that is much repeated in the Aubreyad is
that sailors are irresponsible with money when on shore.
"Michael R. Ward"
perhaps I am simply like Oliver, "I would like some
more please."
You're in luck - we'll start discussing "The Unknown
Shore" Wednesday, August 1.
As a modern reader, I've gotten accustomed to trilogies.
In these two books, POB told the same story from the
vantage points of two ships - too bad he wasn't in the
trilogy habit - I'd have enjoyed reading this from
Captain Cheap's point of view. Or Commodore Anson's. Or
from the Captain of the Spanish ship? Or even Sean's
viewpoint would have been fascinating.
- Susan
In a message Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 John Finneran wrote:
Now the real-life Patrick in this novel starts out as a fairly
non-descript
English boy (William), but in the fantasy resolution, he is to become a
great writer (on a par with Homer and Virgil), and we can assume he is to
enter, at least through his writing, into Peter's world of adventure and
Irishness (i.e., William is to become Patrick).
I'll end with a somewhat related quotation on another English writer (also
named William), who also becomes an Irish writer, sort of.
Very interesting insight from a characteristically fine posting. On a
related topic of Patrick O'Brian's assumption of an Irish persona, it seems
to me he was following the example created by James Joyce, and reinforced by
Samuel Beckett, living the life of the impoverished Irish literary emigré
utterly dedicated to his craft. There are parallels a-plenty between Ulysses
and the Canon, and O'Brian's preoccupation with identity reflects a central
theme of 20th century Irish writing. His style of humour is very reminiscent
of that other Joycean, Flann O'Brien. And while in a literal sense he was
not Irish, in a literary sense - the only one which I suspect counted for
him - he certainly was. And doesn't this explain his determination to grimly
hold on to this self-created identity to the end of his life and shun those
who would question its literal truth. After all, how could inquisitive
journalists be expected to understand and not ridicule this core tenet of
his literary personality ? He remains the only important author, to my
knowledge, who created and maintained a public identity consistent with his
literary one.
Paul, who only takes things littorall-y when he's on the beach.
At 12:32 PM -0500 7/30/2001, Michael R. Ward wrote:
I am a little behind in the group read, having only finished rereading it
this weekend. I continue to be disappointed with the ending of
TGO. Fourteen chapters to get us from rural Ireland to the capture and
half way around the world and just one to get us back. Was this
intentional or was the book becoming too long?
I found both TGO and TUS to be unbalanced in this manner. My impression is
that POB spent too much time and pages on the first half, and then rushed
the final chapters to meet both his personal and publisher's deadline and
word count.
I think the same of several of the Aubrey-Maturin canon, particularly the
later ones. And we have fairly strong evidence that this occurred from
POB's notes in the Lilly Library collection.
Don Seltzer
At 12:59 PM -0700 7/30/2001, Susan Wenger wrote:
As a modern reader, I've gotten accustomed to trilogies.
In these two books, POB told the same story from the
vantage points of two ships - too bad he wasn't in the
trilogy habit - I'd have enjoyed reading this from
Captain Cheap's point of view. Or Commodore Anson's. Or
from the Captain of the Spanish ship? Or even Sean's
viewpoint would have been fascinating.
I discovered a different viewpoint by chance while in a used book store.
Passing through the Travel section on my way to Nautical, my eye caught the
title "A VOYAGE TO THE SOUTH SEAS IN THE YEARS 1740-1741" It was a
facsimile reprint of a book published in 1743 by John Bulkeley, the Gunner
of the Wager. Bulkeley was a leader of the main body of the crew, which
effectively mutinied and left Captain Cheap, to find their way back to
England by way of the Cape of Good Hope. Upon their return, Bulkeley and
carpenter Cummins were quick to write up their version of what happened,
casting Captain Cheap in a very bad light. The PR campaign worked, turning
public opinion in their favor. When Capt. Cheap, and Jack Byron eventually
made their separate returns a few years later, the Admiralty chose to
quietly ignore the question of whether there was a mutiny, and if Captain
Cheap was guilty of murdering a midshipman. Jack Byron published his
account of the voyage many years later. I don't know if Captain Cheap ever
published his version.
POB skipped over much of the mutiny story by conveniently having Toby
falling into a coma for several weeks.
Don Seltzer
Don wrote:
POB skipped over much of the mutiny story by conveniently having Toby
falling into a coma for several weeks.
A technique he also used in TGO, when Peter falls ill, and possibly a bit
of a cop out.
Which reminds me, I had meant to post my appreciation of the business with
the whiskey Peter and Sean drink foe medicinal purposes, and the sudden
revelation that they are actually distilling it on board ship! Marvellous, and
their habit of taking it with Madeiran lemons doubtless helped them avoid the
scurvy that finished off so many of the crew.
Martin Watts
Which reminds me, I had meant to post my appreciation of the business
with
the whiskey Peter and Sean drink foe medicinal purposes, and the sudden
revelation that they are actually distilling it on board ship!
Marvellous, and
their habit of taking it with Madeiran lemons doubtless helped them avoid
the
scurvy that finished off so many of the crew.
Yes, I loved that, especially the scene where the surgeon opined that the
acidulated whiskey might serve as a medicine, if exhibited correctly.
Greg
42º32'34.5" N A technique he also used in TGO, when Peter falls ill, and possibly a
bit
of a cop out.
I can accept the view that it was a cop out (having never written a book
I can only imagine the pressures with trying to finish it). However, I
believe it works well in the context of the story.
It is probable that a person on this voyage would have gotten sick and
the story they are narrating would necessarily have been interrupted.
Nathan
Don Seltzer wrote:
I discovered a different viewpoint by chance while in a used book
store. Passing through the Travel section on my way to Nautical,
my eye caught the title "A VOYAGE TO THE SOUTH SEAS IN THE YEARS
1740-1741" ... Bulkeley was a leader of the main body of the crew,
That is very interesting. Does this book give any indication
how many of the crew survived to make their way back to Britain?
Martin Watts wrote:
Which reminds me, I had meant to post my appreciation of the
business with the whiskey Peter and Sean drink foe medicinal
purposes, and the sudden revelation that they are actually
distilling it on board ship! Marvellous, and their habit of
taking it with Madeiran lemons doubtless helped them avoid the
scurvy that finished off so many of the crew.
POB is a deep old file. When I re-read that chapter, PP reflects
on how depressed he has been, how meek, how weak and lacking
in energy. He reflects on many depressing incidents, of which
the destruction of the most recent volume of his journal is
the most recent. Then he reflects on the one incident that
stands out, the one incident where everything seems to go
wrong, the discovery, and seizure of his lemon adulterated
whisky. Earlier POB has remarked on other characters who,
although they knew the symptoms of scurvy, had not noticed
its progress in themselves.
Of course his lethargy, meekness and depression start with
the seizure of his accidental grog.
Well, it snuck up on me.
I received the below two messages on "The Golden Ocean" recently, which I'm
forwarding to the Gunroom with my correspondant's permission. If anyone has
any comments, I'd be happy to forward them back to Patrick Dilts.
John Finneran
----- Original Message ----- Sir, a search engine query of "HMS Wager" led me to the site http://jfinnera.www1.50megs.com/Golden.htm
To those who were interested in how the crew of HMS Wager returned home,
I recommend "Jenkins' Ear A Narrative Attributed to Horace Walpole, Esq." by
Odell Shepard & Willard Shepard, The Macmillan Company 1951. Several crew members
give first hand accounts. I was fascinated by this book and was looking for
more information on the Wager when I came across your discussion.
Patrick Dilts
----- Original Message -----
John,
You may forward the message. In the book, John Byron gives his account of
the voyage from leaving his home until he separates from Capt. Chepe.
Midshipman Morris tells of going back around the horn in the longboat,
becoming stranded in Patagonia with a few others, and their capture and
adoption by Indians of Patagonia. Morris also relates his deposition upon
return to England. Others tell how the War of Jenkin's Ear affected them
in
America and the Scottish Highlands. If anyone has read the book, I would
be
interested in their opinion of who "Parson Blandison" was.
Patrick
I am back, with a new computer, my old one having succumbed to
"bloodhound.hybridCOM," which had eaten half the hard drive by the time
Norton popped up to tell me that is was too late to fix it.
So, a word to the wise..............back up your priceless baby picture
files.............I didn't!
Now, on to the POB subject here..............a friend asks me to ask the
group whether anyone knows the cultural etymology of the name "Palafox"
from The Golden Ocean, I believe. The character was Irish, yes? The
name...............hispanic?
Friend's comment: (he calls POB "Obie"..........love it)
"On the net, "Palafox" presents itself as a component of many hyphenated
(intermarried) Hispanic names, as a bishop who became governor of Mexico (I
think), and as a noteworthy general in the Spanish War of Independence.
What I want to know is: what is the national origin of the name (Catalan?
Basque??) and why does Obie select it for use in his novel?"
Any help appreciated.
Robin (sans baby pics..............)
I can answer the last question. For "The Golden Ocean" (and "The Unknown
Shore") POB used the actual names of the ship's complements from the Anson
expedition. So there really was a Palafox in the squadron.
Larry
From: Peter Mackay
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD:TGO:FIRST SENTENCES
From: Adam Quinan
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 4:07 PM
Subject: GROUPREAD:TGO: "Quotes"
Adam Quinan
Commander Ted Walker R.N.
Somewhere around 43° 46' 21"N, 79° 22' 51"W
From: Don Seltzer
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: TGO: The Golden Ocean, Lt S. and Lt. S. -- no spoilers
Peter Palafox serves under two first lieutenants while
aboard HMS Centurion. Lieutenant Saunders and Lieutenant
Saumarez. Saumarez is a member of that distinguished naval
family from the channel islands. Towards the end of chapter
7 Lieutenant Saunders is appointed to command of HMS Tryal.
That is on page 137 of my Norton edition.
...
From: Dee Johnson
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD:TGO:FIRST SENTENCES
From: Dee Johnson
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 7:39 PM
Subject: TGO Lament for the Wild Geese
39°14'N 85°52'W
From: Dee Johnson
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 8:01 PM
Subject: Group Read:TGO Ireland
39°14'N 85°52'W
From: William Nyden
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD:TGO:FIRST SENTENCES
Bill Nyden, picking nits
a Rose by another name at Home
37° 23' 28" N 122° 04' 09" W
======================================================
One of these days I've got to stop procrastinating.
http://www.maturin.org/
http://www.Calif-Sport-Divers.org/
http://www.HMSSurprise.org/
From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD:TGO:FIRST SENTENCES
From: Martin Watts
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD:TGO:Ireland, Palafox and Grog
50° 45' N 1° 55' W.
The Borough and County of the Town of Poole
From: Susan Wenger
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 5:06 AM
Subject: Groupread:TGO:The Anson mission and the pensioners]
From: Adam Quinan
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD:TGO:Ireland, Palafox and Grog
http://members.dynasty.net/jmoats/ireland/cmoher.htm
From: Paul B.
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD:TGO:Ireland, Palafox and Grog
http://waterford.local.ie/general/newsletter/archives/issue45.shtml#bally
From: John Finneran
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD:TGO:FIRST SENTENCES
From: Charlezzzz@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: cm GROUPREAD:TGO:FIRST SENTENCES
From: Matt Cranor
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 2:48 PM
Subject: Group Read:TGO Great One-Liners
From: Peter Mackay
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD:TGO:Ireland, Palafox and Grog
http://members.dynasty.net/jmoats/ireland/cmoher.htm
From: Susan Wenger
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:28 PM
Subject: GroupRead:TGO:Tace
From: Susan Wenger
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 4:32 PM
Subject: GroupRead:TGO:Quare re Anson
From: Jean A
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 5:30 PM
Subject: Group Read : TGO
From: Kerry Webb
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read : TGO
Kerry Webb
Canberra, Australia
From: Mary S
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: GroupRead:TGO:Tace
From: Peter Mackay
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: GroupRead:TGO:Tace
From: Peter Mackay
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:38 PM
Subject: GroupRead:TGO Seeing the future
From: Martin Watts
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: GroupRead:TGO:Tace
50° 45' N 1° 55' W.
The Borough and County of the Town of Poole
From: Susan Wenger
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 5:50 AM
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD:TGO:FIRST SENTENCES
From: Jean A
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read
James Keogh, Amby Bodkin, Secretaries
From: Ruth A Abrams
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 2:50 PM
Subject: Group Read: Ireland land of ire?
From: Dee Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: GROUPREAD:TGO:FIRST SENTENCES
From: Dee Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: cm GROUPREAD:TGO:FIRST SENTENCES
From: Larry & Wanda Finch
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: cm GROUPREAD:TGO:FIRST SENTENCES
Larry Finch
::finches@bellatlantic.net larry@prolifics.com
::LarryFinch@aol.com (whew!)
N 40° 53' 47"
W 74° 03' 56"
From: Jean A
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: GROUP READ: TGO
From: geo swan
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 4:58 AM
Subject: The culture of dueling and younger sons (was Re: [POB] Irish duels, with POB content, fortunately
From: Susan Wenger
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 6:13 AM
Subject: Group Read: Ireland land of ire?
From: tom
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 4:10 PM
Subject: Group Read: Ireland, land of ire?
From: Adam Quinan
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read: Ireland, land of ire?
From: Gary Brown
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read: Ireland, land of ire?
From: tom
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 2:04 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read: Ireland, land of ire?
From: Mary Arndt
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 6:11 AM
Subject: Group Read:TGO:Remedies
42º36'53" N
71º20'43" W
From: Gerry Strey
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read:TGO:Remedies
Madison, Wisconsin
From: Gary Brown
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 6:43 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read: Ireland, land of ire?
who finds Palafox entirely credible, but not quite captivating
From: Ruth51@AOL.COM
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read:TGO:Remedies
From: William Nyden
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read:TGO:Remedies
To fetch a pail of water;
Jack fell down, and broke his crown,
And Jill came tumbling after.
As fast as he could caper,
To old Dame Dob, who patched his nob
With vinegar and brown paper.
Bill Nyden
a Rose by another name
37° 25' 15" N 122° 04' 57" W
From: Paul B.
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read : TGO
From: Mary Arndt
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read:TGO:Remedies
From: Jean A
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read TGO
From: Jean A
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: Ireland, land of ire?, was GTO (long)
Jean A.
( My other quotes are from "The Irish World", edited by Brian De Breffny)
From: Gary Brown
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read: Ireland, land of ire?
From: Marian Van Til
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read:TGO:Remedies
From: Mary Arndt
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read:TGO:Remedies
From: tom
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read: Ireland, Land of ire
From: Gary Brown
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read: Ireland, Land of ire
thirsty
From: Astrid Bear
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 8:59 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read:TGO:Remedies
From: Matt Cranor
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:20 AM
Subject: Group Read: GO: Indirect Narrative
44* 2' 44" N
123* 4' 16" W
From: Linnea
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read: TGO: Remedies
From: Susan L. Collicott
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read: TGO: Remedies
From: Jean A
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: Group read : Scots Irish
From:
Subject: Re: Group read : Scots Irish
From: geo swan
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: Group read : Scots Irish
From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: Group read : Scots Irish
From: Lawrence Edwards
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: Group read : Scots Irish
mailto:Lawrence.Edwards@btinternet.com
Home Page:
http://www.btinternet.com/~lawrence.edwards/
ICQ # 57725411
From: Gary Brown
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: Group read : Scots Irish
who never worries about money - though is sometimes troubled by
the lack thereof.
From: Mary S
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: Group read : Scots Irish
35° 58' 11" N
86° 48' 57" W
From: Thistle Farm
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read: Ireland land of ire?
From: Chris Moseley
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read: Ireland land of ire?
Graduate student, Mathematics moseley@email.unc.edu
UNC Chapel Hill
www.unc.edu/~moseley
From: Susan Wenger
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read: Stereotypes, WAS Land of Ire
From: Susan Wenger
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 2:24 PM
Subject: GroupRead:TGO:You can't teach an old dog to change its spots . . .
From: Adam Quinan
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 5:00 PM
Subject: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping?
Commander Ted Walker R.N.
Somewhere around 43° 46' 21"N, 79° 22' 51"W
For some of my family history see
http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/quin.htm
From: Peter Mackay
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping?
From: Susan Wenger
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping?
From: geo swan
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping? The farinaceous brick?
From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping?
From: John Berg
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping?
From: Mal Marchant
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 10:20 PM
Subject: Group Read: TGO: The Day at the Races
31°02'21.9"S 121°36'53.9"E (GDA)
GMT +08:00
From: Nathan Varnum
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping?
From: Nathan Varnum
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping?
Nathan
From: Ginger Johnson
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: GroupRead:TGO:You can't teach an old dog to change its
From: Susan Wenger
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping?
From: Peter Mackay
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping?
From: Martin Watts
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping?
50° 45' N 1° 55' W.
The Borough and County of the Town of Poole
From: Mal Marchant
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 2:50 AM
Subject: Group Read: TGO: The March of the Shrieking Butchers
31°02'21.9"S 121°36'53.9"E (GDA)
GMT +08:00
From: Gerry Strey
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 6:43 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping?
Madison, Wisconsin
From: Susan Wenger
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping?
From: Gerry Strey
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping?
Madison, Wisconsin
From: Jerry Shurman
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: GroupRead:TGO:You can't teach an old dog to change its
From: Jessica Matthews
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping?
--
"I hate quotations. Tell me what
you know." Ralph Waldo
Emerson
From: Mary S
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread TGO Chinese stereotyping?
35° 58' 11" N
86° 48' 57" W
From: Peter Mackay
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read: Instructional manuals.
From: John Finneran
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 3:10 AM
Subject: GRP:TGO: Golden Ocean & Ulysses
With lozenges, and oranges, and lemonade, and raisins.
The gingerbread and spices to accomodate the ladies,
And a big crubeen for tuppence to be picking while you're able."
The nimble-footed dancers and they tripping on the daisies."
It seemed they never touched the ground, their speed was so amazing."
The captain at me roared, said no room had he;
When I jumped aboard, a cabin found for Paddy."
Called myself a fool, I could no longer stand it.
Blood began to boil, temper I was losing;
Poor old Erin's isle they began abusing.
'Hurrah, me soul,' says I, my shillelagh I let fly.
Some Galway boys were nigh and saw I was a hobble in,
With a loud 'Hurray' joined in the affray.
We quickly cleared the way for the rocky road to Dublin."
From: Nathan Varnum
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 4:25 AM
Subject: Re: GRP:TGO: Golden Ocean & Ulysses
From: Mary Arndt
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: GRP:TGO: Golden Ocean & Ulysses
From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: GRP:TGO: Golden Ocean & Ulysses
From: Gerry Strey
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: GRP:TGO: Golden Ocean & Ulysses
From: Jean A
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: Golden Ocean and Ulysses
From: Susan Wenger
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: GRP:TGO: Surprise ending SPOILER
From: Isabelle Hayes
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 6:34 PM
Subject: another paragraph-sentence without a verb
From: Dick Elliott
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 2:34 PM
Subject: Group Read: TGO & TUS
At or about 30.28 N, 87.59 W
From: Mary Arndt
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 9:14 AM
Subject: Group Read:TGO:Bullies
42º36'53" N
71º20'43" W
From: Michael LaRue
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read:TGO:Bullies
From: Gerry Strey
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read:TGO:Bullies
Madison, Wisconsin
From: Mary Arndt
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read:TGO:Bullies
From: Mary Arndt
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read:TGO:Bullies
From: Marian Van Til
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: Our Town
From: Adam Quinan
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 6:27 PM
Subject: Groupread TGO Strange Positions
From: Aari Ludvigsen
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 6:35 AM
Subject: Groupread:TGO:A boy's book?
From: John Berg
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO:A boy's book?
From: Dee Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read TGO, was Our Town
From: Susan Wenger
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 5:39 PM
Subject: Groupread:TGO:A boy's book?
Aari Ludvigsen
From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO:A boy's book?
From: TFAJr
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO:A boy's book?
N 35* 23' 52'' W 78* 49' 9''
From: Adam Quinan
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO:A boy's book?
From: Peter Mackay
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 3:21 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO:A boy's book?
From: geo swan
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 4:36 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO:A boy's book?
From: Peter Mackay
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 4:40 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO:A boy's book?
From: geo swan
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 4:48 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO: Anson's background
From: Martin Watts
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 5:35 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO: Anson's background
50° 45' N 1° 55' W.
The Borough and County of the Town of Poole
From: Martin Watts
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO:A boy's book?
50° 45' N 1° 55' W.
The Borough and County of the Town of Poole
From: Ruth A Abrams
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO:A boy's book?
From: Amanda Dunham
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 8:48 AM
Subject: Groupread:TGO:A boy's book?
Amanda Dunham
The List Sin Eater, not the Amanda in the UK ;-)
37* 33' 22.93" N NAD 27
122* 19' 51.46" W Clark 66
+81 ft Mean Sea Level
Robert Louis Stevenson, -=Treasure Island=-
From: TFAJr
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO:A boy's book?
N 35* 23' 52'' W 78* 49' 9''
Leonardo da vinci
From: John Berg
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO:A boy's book?
and
TUS with Testimonies.
From: geo swan
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO: Anson's family and fortune
From: Martin Watts
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 3:02 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO: Anson's family and fortune
50° 45' N 1° 55' W.
The Borough and County of the Town of Poole
From: Aari Ludvigsen
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO: A boy's book? + whence naval minutiae?
From: Aari Ludvigsen
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO:A boy's book?
From: Peter Mackay
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO: A boy's book? + whence naval minutiae?
From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: Groupread:TGO: A boy's book? + whence naval minutiae?
From: Charlezzzz@AOL.COM
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: More than sum was Re: Jack's musicianship
From: Dee Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: TGO Sean and Padeen Was : More than sum was Re: Jack's musicianship
From: John Finneran
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 3:50 PM
Subject: GRP:TGO: Characters
From: Gary Brown
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: GRP:TGO: Characters
(who much enjoyed John F's post)
From: Jim McPherson
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: GRP:TGO: Characters
Jim
33` 47' 30" N
116` 32' 10" W
From: Adam Quinan
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: GRP:TGO: Characters
http://holydays.tripod.com/shamrock.htm
From: Susan Wenger
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: GRP:TGO: Characters
From: Don Seltzer
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: GRP:TGO: Characters
From: Adam Quinan
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: GRP:TGO: Characters
Adam Quinan
Commander Ted Walker R.N.
Somewhere around 43° 46' 21"N, 79° 22' 51"W
For some of my family history see
http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/quin.htm
From: Michael R. Ward
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 10:32 AM
Subject: Group Read: TGO - Last Chapter
perhaps I am simply like Oliver, "I would like some more please."
From: Dee Johnson
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:20 AM
Subject: Group Read GO, Sailors and Money
From: Susan Wenger
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read: TGO - Last Chapter
From: Paul B.
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: GRP:TGO: Characters
From: Don Seltzer
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read: TGO - Last Chapter
From: Don Seltzer
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read: TGO - Last Chapter
From: Martin Watts
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read: TGO - Last Chapter
50° 45' N 1° 55' W.
The Borough and County of the Town of Poole
From: Greg White
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read: TGO - Last Chapter
71º20'13.2" W
From: Nathan Varnum
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: Group Read: TGO - Last Chapter
From: geo swan
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: Group Read: TGO - Last Chapter
From: geo swan
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 6:51 PM
Subject: PP's lowest moment... (was Re: [POB] Group Read: TGO - Last Chapter
From: John Finneran
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 2:35 AM
Subject: Fw: Discussion of "The Golden Ocean (1956)"
From: Patrick Dilts
To: John Finneran
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 3:58 PM
Subject: Discussion of "The Golden Ocean (1956)"
From: Patrick Dilts
To: John Finneran
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 4:15 PM
Subject: Jenkin's Ear
From: Robin Welch
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Palafox
From: Larry & Wanda Finch
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: Palafox
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